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RESIDENTS OF
PDL 22 APRIL 2008 ROGATORY |
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27 to 72?Transcription of
witness statement of Carole
Tranmer 2008.04.22
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TRANSLATION BY INES |
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04-Cartas
Rogatorias Vol 4 Pages 27 - 72 |
THIS IS AN
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT.
THERE ARE 2 PEOPLE SPEAKING, A POLICE OFFICER & MRS FENN'S NIECE |
Leicestershire Police Squad Witness
Statement:
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980,
ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal
Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Ivor MESSIAH
Age if less than 18:
Occupation:
This statement, consisting of one
page, signed by me, is true to the
best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is
tendered in evidence, I shall be
liable to prosecution if I have
wilfully states in it anything I
know to be false or do not believe
to be true.
Date: 15 of May 2008
Signature
_________________________________________
I am police detective 1485 with the
Leicestershire police and work in
the Braunstone police squad in the
criminal investigation unit. On
Tuesday, the 22nd of April of
2008 I was in the service of the
squad between 08h55 and 10h25 of
this same day. An interview
relevant to witness Carole Tranmer
occurred in the interview room.
The interview was recorded on DVD
and appended as evidence (IM/28')
together with a copy of the DVD
(IM/28B). Appended also is the
transcription of this same interview
as evidence (IM/28).
During the interview, Carole TRANMER
provided the following evidence:
CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club
apartment block
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in
Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the
terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday,
the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I
collected three pieces of evidence
from Carole Tranmer. This statement
was made by me and is truthful in
accordance with my belief and
understanding.
*******************
Leicestershire Police Squad
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980,
ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal
Criminal 2005, Decision 27.1
Witness statement of: Carole
TRANMER
Age is less than 18:
Occupation:
This statement, consisting of one
page, signed by me, is true to the
best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is
tendered in evidence, I shall be
liable to prosecution if I have
wilfully states in it anything I
know to be false or do not believe
to be true.
Date: 22 of April of 2008
Signature
_____________________________________________
I am the above referenced person and
live at the address previously given
to the police by my husband.
On Tuesday the 22nd of April of
2008, I attended the police squadron
in Enderby, Leicestershire. I spoke
with DC 1485 Messiah.
Between 9h43 and 11h00 he
conducted a recorded video
interview, during which I drew an
outline of the apartment block
(evidence CT10) which I visited on
Tuesday, the 3rd of May of 2008.
During this interview I presented a
map of the Ocean Club in Praia da
Luz, and signalled where I visited,
subject to what I have already
described. This evidence is
referenced as CT11.
During this interview, I also showed
DC Messiah a photograph taken by my
husband on Sunday, the 29th of
April, 2007. The photograph shows me
on the terrace of my aunt's
apartment in the Ocean Club. I am
turned towards the crosswalk, but
did not, on this occasion, see the
subject. This photograph is
referenced as evidence CT12. At
11h10 on Tuesday, the 22nd of April
of 2008 I handed this evidence to DC
Messiah.
This statement was made by me and is
truthful according to my belief and
understanding.
******************
Leicestershire Police Squad
Formula MG15(T)
Transcribed/Recorded Witness
Statement
Person interviewed: Carole
TRANMER
Location of interview: Enderby
Police Squadron
Date of Interview: 22 of April of
2008
Start time: 09h43
Stop time: 11h10
Agent that conducted the interview:
DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other people present:
n': IM28
Page Numbers: 54
Signature of Interviewer:
Agent that produced the documents:
Messiah DC1485
Duration of interview: 87 minutes
Recording Ref': IM28A
DC1485'The recording is now live.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'This interview is being video
recorded, it is Tuesday, the 22nd
of April, 2008, and the hour
on my watch is 9 hours and 40
minutes. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH
and I am a detective with the
Leicestershire police in the
Criminal Investigation unit and
would like to ask her to present
herself and tell me her name, the
date of her birth and her address,
please'
CT'Humm...my name is Carol TRANMER
and my date of birth is the first
day of 1948 and I live at, humm...
(detail removed).
DC1485'Okay, and your occupation, I
believe, you are retired'
CT'I am now retired, yes.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'What was your occupation
before retirement'
CT'Humm... Yes, before retirement I
worked temporarily for, more or less
a year, and before that, I ran an
antique business.
DC1485'Right.
CT'I owned it for, humm... four
years, and before this I worked as a
secretary at Windsor Castle.
DC1485'Right.
CT'For this reason, humm... I worked
as an administrative secretary for
most of my life.
DC1485'How nice. Did you like what
you did'
CT'Yes, very much so, yes.
DC1485'Do you have children'
CT'No, I do not have children.
DC1485'You have no children,
therefore, do you live alone with
your husband'
CT'Yes, we (inaudible).
DC1485'How long have you been
married'
CT'We have been married for 20 years
and... humm, have lived together for
23 years in (address removed).
DC1485'In the same location'
CT'In the same house.
DC1485'Same house, yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'You told me that you worked
at Windsor Castle'
CT'Windsor Castle.
DC1485'Did you know the Queen'
CT'Yes. I knew her.
DC1485'Personally or'
CT'All, all, yes. The entire family,
the whole royal family, yes.
DC1485'How did that happen'
CT'I worked in the Royal Collection
and hummm... I was a personal
assistant in the royal library and
bookstore. I frequently encountered
the royal family in private visits.
There was also the Easter Court
where the entire Buckingham Palace
would usually come. Everyone had a
very restricted calendar regarding
their duties , thus if anything
happened to the royal family, if
they brought friends of visitors to
Windsor, I had the opportunity to
meet them and to show them around.
Dc1485'And did you speak to the
Queen or Philip'
CT'Mmm, yes, yes.
DC1485'And Diana, did you know
Diana'
CT'No, I never knew Diana. She was
not there at the time.
DC1485'That must have been
lamentable for you.
CT'Pardon'
DC1485'Of not having the opportunity
to meet her' Not having the
opportunity to meet her is a shame
given what happened to her also.
CT'Yes, yes.
CT'Yes, a tragedy, but it was a good
experience working there.
DC1485'Great! It is good that you
liked it.
CT'Yes, I liked it.
DC1485'The reason for our discussion
today, Carole, has to do with the
Portuguese investigation regarding
the disappearance of Madeleine
McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of May of
2007. Essentially, the Portuguese
police, or the PJ as they are also
known, are leading this
investigation and have asked us, the
Leicestershire police--because the
McCANN family are also from
Leicestershire--to be the their link
in England to the investigation. Do
you understand what we have to do'
CT'Mmm, mmm yes.
DC1485'The reason for speaking to
you is obviously the same reason we
are speaking to the other people who
were in Portugal and who know the
McCann family. They are all being
questioned and their statements
recorded on video, as are you. You
are not in the minority'everyone's
testimony has proceeded in the same
way.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And as I have already
mentioned, the reason for this
meeting is to produce an interview
so that the Portuguese authorities
can have all the statements that are
needed in order to proceed with the
investigation and/or conclude the
enquiry. This is their decision and
we are merely collaborating with
them.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'They only want us to speak
with you so as to elaborate
questions or to our interview
technique. Short of this, they are
trying to see if there is any
existing piece of information that
may surface.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DCc1485'Are you okay'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'What I am about to ask you
Caroline, is to make an
introduction, that you tell me a bit
about yourself and how you managed
or organised your stay in Portugal
during the time of the
disappearance.
CT'Mmm, good. My aunt, Pamela Fenn,
lives in a Luz apartment and we
visit her frequently. Our last visit
was a result of a birthday gift, if
you can call it that. But our trip
was in reality to look for a home,
as we would like to live there one
day. For this reason, we stayed in
the eastern Algarve, not in my
aunt's house but in a small complex
whose name I do not remember.
DC1485'Could it have been Pinhal do
Sol'
CT'Yes, that is it.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'So, we stayed there. We booked a
reservation for only a week, and
hummm'on Sunday, we decide to visit
my aunt and to take her to lunch. It
was at this point that the
photographs of our holidays were
taken.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'After this we spent the rest of
our time in the eastern Algarve to
look at properties and on
Thursday'my birthday was on
Tuesday'we decided to take my aunt
to lunch before our return the next
Saturday. The incident happened on
Thursday.
DC1485'Yes. You should continue and
explain how everything happened.
CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will
describe everything, everything that
I can.
CT'We were all seated on the
terrace, hummm'talking, and I was
inclined to look below and this is
when I saw someone leave the
apartment of the first floor,
closing the gate very gently as they
were leaving, opening and closing
the gate with much caution and in
silence. It appeared to me very
strange. They looked to one side and
the other, shut the gate and walked
very quickly downwards. It was at
this point that I turned to my aunt
and my husband and exclaimed 'That
was really very strange', but they
were talking and very involved in
the conversation (inaudible). I
became involved in the conversation
and did not think anymore about the
incident. We left when it was around
6h30, after having finished eating
and doing other things, and on
Friday we passed by car, continuing
to look at properties and such. We
did not visit any estate agents, and
on Saturday we left. We got to the
airport and heard people talking
about a missing child. This did not
yet bring anything back and we
commented on the horror.
CT'After arriving home, Sunday
morning we woke and read the Times
Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's
apartment and the notice about the
missing child. I did not want to
believe it and for this reason
telephoned her and said: 'Did you
see'' to which she responded 'It was
been an inferno, terrible since both
of you left'. After this I spoke
with my cousin, whose son is at
Sandhurst and told her 'What do you
think we should do, do you think''
because at this time I remembered
that I had seen something. It did
not come to me right away but
afterwards I told my husband 'Well,
I saw that funny situation, you
know'that type of behavior of the
individual, with a sneaky aspect' to
which he responded, 'Well you should
talk to the police', and I said
'Yes, but it is likely that it has
nothing to do with it'. After, we
thought a bit more about it and I
telephoned my cousin who is at
Sandhurst and he told me that I
should call the police and tell
them. I did exactly this. I
telephoned the Windsor police and
told them, more or less, what I had
told him and to my family. They told
me that they would give me a number
to call the Leicester police. We
passed by the Windsor squadron but
it is clear that no one was there so
I called the Leciester police and
told them basically what I had seen.
They told me, well'thank you, we are
going to get in touch with you, and
after that everything happened. This
is what happened, more or less.
CT'Thus, this was when I called
them, that is when you, sir, called
me.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'After that, you booked a meeting
time so that someone could come and
speak with me
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And I was working temporarily
(inaudible) for the Royal Borough of
Maidenhead.
DC1485'Did they visit you at work'
CT'Yes, they came to the office as
they asked me what would be easier
and I told them that it would be
easier if they could come to me so
that I would not miss too much work
and'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Then, I arranged a room and they
came to visit.
DC1485'Wonderful.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'Were they at all
unaccommodating'
CT'No.
DC1485'The fact that they came to
visit you.
CT'No, no, truthfully, I am only
trying to help.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'An after having spoken to them, I
received a call from someone in
Reading asking me to help in trying
to create what they called an
'identi-kit'.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'They asked me 'if it was
possible' and I responded 'yes, of
course' and they came from Reading.
I reserved another room for them and
it was in this way that everything
happened, and'
DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your
statement from the 8th of May, 2007,
more or less one week after you saw
the individual. It would be easier
if you read the statement yourself
and tell me if there is anything you
want to add.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'I would like to analyse a few
parts of your statement with you, if
you allow me, and to stimulate your
memory to see if you remember
anything else in relation to your
stay.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'I would like to clarify in
your statement'-your statement 'On
the 28th of May, 2008'my husband and
I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to
Portugal to spend a week of holidays
in the eastern Algarve' and in
addition, to look for properties to
buy. 'We stayed in a location
called'"
Dc1485'Quarteira, is that so'
CT'I believe so.
DC1485'Quarteira.
CT'That is it, Quarteira, Quarteira.
DC1485'Quarteira, in a zone called
(inaudible).
CT'(inaudible) mmm, mmm.
CT''We rented a vehicle to travel.
My aunt lives in apartment 20,
Waterside Gardens, Praia da Luz,
Bloco 5G in the Ocean Club. We went
to visit her on Sunday, the 29th of
May'. Is this wrong'
CT'No, it is not correct. We arrived
on Saturday,
DC1485'Well then, it was after,
after the disappearance of
Madeleine. Was it not'
CT'No, no because this, humm... was
in April, it was the 1st of May,
Tuesday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We arrived more or less in the
end of April.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Therefore, it was... my birthday
was on the 1st, Tuesday, and
Thursday was the 1st of May.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus, we arrived the Saturday
before.
DC1485'Let me show you what you
said, where I want to arrive, ma'am,
you returned to Portugal after the
disappearance of Madeleine'
CT'No.
DC1485'So that date is incorrect'
CT'Yes. It was in fact in April.
DC1485'April, this is it then'
CT'Yes, I should have read this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Or no, I don't know.
DC1485'It says here, Saturday, the
28th of May.
CT'It was the 28th of April because
it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we
took my aunt to lunch.
CT'Yes and after we went to visit
her on Sunday. We visited her on the
29th of April.
DC1485'And here it says May, thus
this statement is incorrect, right'
CT'Yes of course.
DC1485'Good. Let us clarify the
statement collected on the 8th of
May, relative to the dates referred
to.
CT'Yes, it was wrong, it was in
April.
DC1485'In fact it should be
Saturday, the 28th of April.
CT'Sure.
DC1485'This is correct, of course it
was.
CT'I got confused when I read this.
DC1485'Yes, I would also get
confused.
DC1485'Good, then in relation to the
date, everything is now correct'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Yes, good. Relative to what
you said happened on Thursday, your
statement states that Thursday, the
3rd, you went to visit your aunt.
Therefore, you saw her on Sunday'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'And after that you went in
search of properties'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Passing through the eastern
Algarve, right'
CT'That is correct, yes.
DC1485'Thursday, the 3rd of May.
CT'May, mmm, mmm.
DC1485'You returned to your aunt in
Praia. Now tell me from where you
were coming and tell me about that
day.
CT'We, we were lodged in Quarteira.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'On this day, that morning, we
left towards Luz but we took a bit
of time, not much, much time. I do
not remember now but it was about an
hour or so because we were in the
eastern part and she lives in the
barlavento region of the Algarve.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We drove from there until Luz
where my aunt lived, humm...I don't
remember but I believe that we also
went shopping for her before our
lunch and we had coffee when we
arrived, humm... It should have been
11 or around noon when we arrived,
humm... after we went to pick her
up. We met up, drank a coffee on the
terrace and after went out to lunch
in Lagos, which is humm... in the
old part of the city. There is a
restaurant there whose specialty is
fish and she really wanted to go
there. We returned around 3:30, sat
on the terrace, had a coffee and
stayed in the apartment until around
6:30 and left around 6:30 that same
day.
DC1485'This was on Sunday, right'
CT'No, this was on Thursday.
DC1485'This on Thursday, I
understand.
CT'This all happened on Thursday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We left around 6:30. It was
already dusk because at that time of
the year, it gets dark quickly in
Portugal. We drove to our hotel and
arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.
DC1485'It was a two hour trip then'
CT'It was about that, mmm, yes, it
was a considerable distance.
DC1485'Speak to me about the
apartment where your aunt lives.
CT'Sure (inaud'le)
DC1485'It is obviously called, given
its location, the Ocean Club, right'
CT'It is in the Ocean Club, but
she...
DC1485'How long has she been there,
in that apartment'
CT'When my uncle died, they had a
villa close to Lagos, but when he
died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to
buy the site in Luz. She bought it
because it was surrounded by people
and it was easy for her to come and
go as she did not want a big site.
She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and
it is the second or third floor, I
am never certain, but I believe that
there is one more apartment
DC1485'ground floor... ground floor,
first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe
that she is on the third floor.
DC1485'Third floor.
CT'There is only one on top,
therefore, she is on the third
floor, at the end apartment. Once
there, you take the elevator or the
stairs. There is no other entrance
or exit. You go directly to her
door. She lives at the end. There is
no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves
the elevator, to which side does one
walk, left or right'
CT'You turn left.
DC1485'Sure.
CT'You walk, as it is a long
corridor. It is open at the back
part, it is an open corridor open in
such a way one can see the front
because the back part, if you can
call that part which is turned
toward the pool, but the front part
of the building, is in truth the
back of the same. Does this make
sense'
DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.
CT'Because this is the entry, the
only entry point and exit point,
after this there is only the veranda
and the terrace and nothing more. It
has been there since 2003.
DC1485'And when you enter, give me a
description of the apartment.
CT'I will describe what one sees
when entering. Well, when one enters
there is a small entrance hall where
you find her room and the living
area. After, there is one more room
on the opposite side of the small
veranda. It is not really a veranda
but a passage where one can walk;
there is a window and an entrance
door. This window is normally
covered by a closed blind because it
is the guest room; after that is a
front door in such a position'the
window is there and the door and
when one enters there is an access
door to the to the guest room and
after, her room, which is at the
edge of the building.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'One passes through there and
there is a bathroom and through the
entrance hall there is a guest room,
a kitchen and an eating area. After
the living area, there is a big open
terrace'where we would usually go.
It is completely open.
DC1485'When you are on the terrace,
to which direction are you turned'
CT'We are turned to a beautiful view
of the ocean and all the clay roofs
of the village, where one can see
the pool, the reception area, the
pool zone, the tennis courts, and
one could see the roof of the Tapas
bar. There are trees and bushes
between all of this, so when one
looks out, there are only roof tops,
the small homes and other villas. It
is an incredible view.
DC1485'Who else lives there'
CT' Actually, she is the only
resident, which may seem strange but
she wants to be there. So she is the
only resident. All the other owners,
the majority of them, more or less,
are people who acquired the
apartments and rent them or else use
them only for holidays. For this
reason, there are times in the year
when she is alone.
DC1485'And who else lives with her'
CT' She is completely alone.
DC1485'Alone.
CT' No one else.
DC1485'So, in addition to your
visit...'
CT' When we visit or stay in the
apartment with her, we do not take
advantage of her because she is an
older woman; she is eighty-something
and as you know, it is not big
enough for us to stay there with
her.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' We always stay somewhere else,
local. It is easier for her.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' And she does not have to worry
about us and with the family. She
has many relatives who visit and
normally they all stay...
DC1485'Somewhere else.
CT' Unless it is just for a weekend
or something similar.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' Normally, because it is a lot of
work and you know, she is arthtritic
and these things; well, we prefer to
stay somewhere else close to her.
DC1485'And you can confirm that it
is block 5G'
CT'5G yes.
DC1485'And the name of, and the
number of the apartment, 5G'
CT' No, the apartment is the
twentieth.
DC1485'Apartment 20.
CT' Apartment 20.
DC1485'Waterside Gardens'
CT' Yes. Waterside Gardens, yes.
DC1485'Very good. When you look
outside, as you mentioned a while
ago, when you spoke of the view at
which you were turned when you enter
the terrace, tell me, what do you
see below that area'
CT' Well, below, if you look right
down, there is a street which leads
to the supermarket which is at the
end of a small' I call it an alley'
a long passageway in front of all of
the verandas that look towards the
pool. There is a hedge which lines
the small gates which gave access to
the ground-floor apartments and it
was through one of these small gates
that I saw this person leave.
DC1485'Very good.
CT' And it was here from where he
left. After this, he looked to this
side and left quickly and
disappeared in that direction. That
brought him along the street leading
up to the supermarket, or up until
the top of the hill ahead. I do not
know which direction he took
(inaudible).
DC1485'Okay. And did you see anyone
else; you know what day it was; the
day you were there, on Thursday. Do
you know if there were more tourists
in that block of apartments'
CT' No, that is to say, there were
more people in the pool zone. There
were more people around. I believe
that it may be possible some were
swimming, or even playing tennis. I
cannot remember.
DC1485'Was there anyone who called
your attention' Think, think well
about the location and where you
were on this day.
CT' On that day'
DC1485'Besides the individual,
obviously.
CT' Besides him...
DC1485'Yes.
CT' No one comes to mind. The one
thing that I do remember is that
some celebration was going on, but I
don't know if it was the Sunday or
the Thursday. There was some
celebration, next to the pool. I do
not know if it was the families, the
guests of the complex, but there was
something. The only thing I can say
is that it could have been Sunday or
Thursday. I cannot remember and for
this reason I would like to leave
out this detail.
DC1485'When you speak of a
celebration' was it was a barbeque
or a bunch of people in good moods'
CT' Well, it appeared to be a
celebration, you know, with all the
people in good moods and a lot of
noise' not much noise but people
were laughing and I do not know if
this was on Sunday or Thursday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' This detail I will not mention
since I am not certain if it was
Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't
want to confuse my recollection with
this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is
nothing more. I cannot remember
anything more about anyone; nothing
more about this.
DC1485'When you were there, did you
visit the supermarket'
CT' Humm... I am not certain if I
went there that morning. I believe
that is possible my husband passed
by there to pick up something for mu
aunt. Me, no. It could have been
Sunday' as you can see once again I
am uncertain, I am sorry I cannot
remember.
DC1485'Try to position yourself
during the second visit; given what
happened on Thursday, think about
the hour you arrived. Think about
whether someone welcomed you when
you exited the car. Ok'
CT' Mmm.
DC1485'On Thursday.
CT' Well, we arrived and went
directly to the apartment. My
husband thinks that he noticed
something. I think that we went to
the supermarket on the street to the
restaurant to see if' to find blubs
for the light fixture. This was
before lunch. We looked around the
supermarket for these special bulbs
for her. He could have gone alone
or' I do not know. I did not go but
it is possible he went, but no'I
cannot remember. We got together and
had coffee and after went out for
lunch. It had to around noon or
something similar but it was
probably noon because we wanted to
get to the restaurant around this
time as it fills quickly and is well
known and frequented by locals. They
only serve fish, fish, fish, but she
adores it. For this reason we had to
arrive early before the other
people' around noon.
DC1485'Noon.
CT'Well we must have left home
around 11h00 to 11h30'mmm'
DC1485'And did you go on foot or by
car'
CT'No, we had to drive there.
DC1485'How long did the journey
take'
CT'Hum, it was not very long'it is
in Lagos.
DC1485'It is in Lagos.
CT'Yes, from Luz to Lagos.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It must have been about 15
minutes.
DC1485'Okay. What was the restaurant
called'
CT'Well, I do not remember the name
(inaud'le) or something like that.
It is located in the old part of the
city and one goes climbing until the
top (inaudible) yes. 'Esquitera' or
something like that. I don't
remember its proper name.
DC1485'It is a restaurant that
serves fish'
CT'It is a restaurant that serves
fish. It is very well known.
DC1485'On top of the hill'
CT'But it is not a tourist location;
it is more for local people, more or
less, but it is the best, mmm, and
it is not refined. The tables are
made of wood with oilcloth and the
fish, you know... it is wonderful.
DC1485--Yes.
CT'But I cannot remember the name it
is (inaudible) or something like
that.
DC1485'Okay.
DC1485'Did you go to the Tapas Bar
with your aunt'
CT'No, no, no it was not there when
I visited the last time, and it is
something very recent; I believe
that it was built about a year ago
and I was there before the Tapas Bar
was constructed. I think it was a
part of the reception or something
similar. We were not there before.
It is very new.
DC1485'And the courts, did you visit
the tennis courts'
CT'No, we do not play tennis and we
did not swim in the pool.
DC1485'You did not use the pool'
CT'No.
DC1485'And the cr'he'did you go to
the cr'he zone where the children
were'
CT'No, I would not go to the cr'he
as there was no reason to.
DC1485'Okay. How many times were you
there exactly'
CT'Hum... in Portugal or in Luz'
DC1485'Okay, in this resort'
CT'A few times, perhaps three; the
first time was when my aunt moved in
2003 or 2004 and after that for a
week. My brother dies in 2003 and I
remember that my uncle, Aunt
Pamela's husband, died in June of
2003. As there were four deaths in
our family in the first four months
of that year, the time of her move
has stayed in my memory.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, she was very upset with all
of it, and I was trying to help her
cope along with dealing with my twin
brother's death. For this reason, I
went to visit her for a week in
February in 2004. It was my first
time in that place but we had
already been in Luz before that when
we went to Portugal as tourists.
After that, we went a second time
with my husband and stayed in
(inaudible) a small fishing village
about 10 minutes from Luz. We have
already been in Portugal many times,
but to visit Luz only three times.
DC1485'Okay. When you were there how
was the temperature'
CT'It was good, sunny and hot. At
times it was necessary to use a
sweater but during the day it was
marvellous. Besides this, it was
fresh and but very agreeable.
CT'I believe it rained one day; it
was a bit windy, besides this... it
was wonderful weather ' not for sun
bathing, even though there were
people doing just this but it was
not really sun bathing weather.
DC1485'The (inaudible) people. What
I will do next Carole, is to show
you a part of a map, okay, and I
will ask you to outline some parts
as well.
CT'Outline'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Oh my God.
DC1485'You spoke, you spoke of, of,
of another man you saw.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'You saw him leaving your
aunt's terrace'
CT'Mmm, mmm
DC1485'This, this is a map, it only
covers the Luz area and he have
here, if you can imagine, or even
see exactly, the block of
apartments.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And here is the pool.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Here is the Tapas Bar and
restaurant.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Here is the tennis court.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'Right here.
DC1485'This is rua estreita.
CT'That is rua estreita.
DC1485'The passageway, right.
DC1485'Point me to the direction
from which the individual came.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And if you could show me in
the way a camera captures an image.
From, from which apartment did he
leave and to where did he go and
where were you'
CT'In my aunt's, in the apartment of
my aunt in the corner to the top.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Look to the bottom where you
were looking, if you want. You were
looking to the bottom to the right
and downwards, but this is not
towards the lower apartment but is
actually slightly to the right and
there is her veranda and finally,
here on top, for I would say that
here there is a small gate'for this
reason it was not this apartment in
the end, that is what I wanted to
say, you know'
CT'It was not the last one, yes, it
was not exactly the last of the
street.
DC1485'No, it was not the first
gate.
CT'Of the interior.
CT'Where, if you have access.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'From there, there is a gate. It
was not this gate, it was'when you
leave the rua estreita, is it the
very first gate you see.
DC1485'How many gates are there in
total'
CT'I think that all of them have
small gates.
DC1485'I am looking.
CT'Yes, as I recall or think, but I
believe they are for all people. I
am not certain because I never saw
the lower apartments having access
to the others, no. For this reason,
he was leaving and after looked from
side to side and continued walking
on the street. I did not see in
which direction he left, and it is
here that I think I saw him, but it
is not possible for someone to leave
from this gate.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Or perhaps it is here from which
the people or'perhaps I did not
notice that there was another small
gate.
DC1485'Oh, I am seeing it.
CT'I thought that there was only
this gate.
DC1485'Thus, here lies the
confusion' to clarify things.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'It is not exactly the
principal gate because, as you
noted, the ultimate apartment is
where the McCann's were lodged.
CT'Well I did not know. As you know
I was on the top.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And so it is clear, it was not
this apartment from which I was
looking.
DC1485'Your aunt's apartment is
exactly on top'
CT'Yes, it is directly on top.
DC1485'But it is two floors up'
CT'It is the last one, yes.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Well then, I was looking to the
first gate at the end of the alley.
DC1485'Yes, yes.
CT'It was there that I saw the
person leave.
DC1485'Okay, and your direction was
this way, following the passageway
or to the other direction towards
the shrubs'
CT'No, it was towards the gate.
DC1485'In the inside.
CT'Yes, because humm... it must be,
there are shrubs and there is no
gate there.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'As far as I know.
DC1485'Okay, yes.
CT'I did not, I do not remember any
gates. I believe that you have to go
up and around, or to go through a
different passage, or something like
this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I was never exactly in the area
below but I do know that it was this
locale, humm... and I told my
husband, I should tell him this. I
had no idea that it was this was the
apartment they stayed. I only knew
that which I saw and I was not
wasting time. (inaudible)
DC1485'No, not in any way. We only
want to clarify everything.
CT'It is only that gate, that is the
only one.
DC1485'Would you mind making me an
outline, please'
CT'Sure.
DC1485'If you would, if you make it,
if you could make the same one as
this block here.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And after, please mark an X
in the location where you saw this
man leaving.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And after where, where is the
gate in relation to the area from
where he left.
CT'So, here is the block, okay, then
the veranda of my aunt and here on
top.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I am looking forward, here in the
bottom is a small gate and here is
the rua estreita. There is the rua
estreita and there are shrubs here
and here, the small gates, they are
all like this and you climb some
steps or can enter from the right, I
believe, to enter the apartment.
Thus I am looking more or less
upwards to downwards and he left
from here' the first gate you reach.
I did not know of this one here, I
did not know of this one.
DC1485'Ah ah.
CT'What I know is that this is the
gate and this is what I thought.
DC1485'And can you tell me if he
came out of an apartment or was
simply exiting the complex'
CT'He was leaving, he was exiting.
DC1485'From an apartment'
CT'I did not see him leave an
apartment. I only saw him leave from
the gate.
DC1485'Did the gate give direct
access to the apartment'
CT'But he was, yes... mmm... no, not
at the last apartment.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I suppose there is another
apartment.
DC1485'Okay. I am seeing it.
CT' According to what I saw below,
it happened here, it could have been
the last apartment.
DC1485'In your opinion, is it
possible that he was leaving his
apartment, next to the last
apartment'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'This, this is just to say'
CT'Probably, oh it is right to say
this because I would hate to state
that he was; he may not have been
leaving because that past one was a
different entrance.
Dc1485'Yes, okay.
CT'A different entrance as a whole,
the site closest to that row, the
first door must have been next to
the stairs.
DC1485'Yes and after you saw him
leave, what happened'
CT'Well, he opened the gate from
inside and made so he did not make
any noise, I only'it was what made
me feel strange about it. He did
this all very quietly, as if... you
know, when a gate creeks, but he
ensured that it did not make noise,
it could have been (inaudible)
DC1485'With caution'
CT'Yes, simply ensuring that it did
not bang, and I know some people who
enter without banging the doorafter
they enter, so this was very
cautious, very careful, and for this
reason, only this reason, I called
you.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It looked as though he was
leaving, he closed it with both his
hands, many times, closing it in
silence and cautiously with both
hands and he looked lastly this way
downwards, first to this side.
DC1485'So what you are saying is
that he looked first in your
direction' He looked to you, but he
was not positioned. This way
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Then he looked to the left.
CT'Oh I see.
DC1485'And after he cautiously and
slowly pushed it and afterwards
looked to the right, and continued
walking.
CT'And he'the direction he took was
to the street.
DC1485'He then went in this
direction to the street, here, this
street.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Along here in this direction
towards the supermarket.
CT'Yes. But I do not know if he went
in that direction or in this
direction.
DC1485'(inaudible)
CT'Walking this way upwards and I
then turned to my aunt and my
husband.
DC1485'Then on your map, where do
you believe you saw him for the last
time'
CT'At the exterior of the gate. He
was closing it.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And moving there in an upwards
direction.
DC1485'Yes, then, the last location
at which you saw him, he would have
been, would it be possible that the
last time you saw him, he was
passing the apartments in direction
of the street'
CT'No, I only saw him walking and I
did not see him on the rua estreita
for when I turned to speak with my
family, he was, he was probably
always at the the top of the street,
and.
DC1485'Okay. I am not here to put
words in your mouth, or ideas in
your head Carole, but it is possible
that the last time you saw him he
was only passing through, as I have
already indicated from the location
of the McCann apartment. The last
time you saw him was passing by the
McCann apartment then'
CT'Possibly, possibly, yes, I only
know that I did not see him turn to
the right or the left. I did not
look more after he passed the gate.
I only know the direction in which
he went. He simply went in this
direction, in that direction.
DC1485'Then Mrs. Tranmer, what
happened first, did you lose sight
of him or did he disappear from your
line if sight'
CT'No, I lost sight of him.
DC1485'So you turned'
CT'I simply turned away.
DC1485'You turned'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'With your back to him'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Then before you turned, he
was still visible'
CT'He was still visible.
DC1485'And you as well.
CT'When I turned, it was obvious he
was heading somewhere. I only know
that he was headed in that
direction.
DC1485'Very good, okay.
CT'Then, I turned like this and he
disappeared.
DC1485'This is great, it is great,
it is clear, okay. I am going to now
try to ask a serues of questions
that the Portuguese police would
like to ask you, okay'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'Perhaps you have already
answered before but what I want you
to do, it to respond with as much
detail possible. Good, the first
questions is ' do you attest to you
statement given to the British
police in May of two thousand'eight
of may of 2007. Do you attest to the
statement that was made on this day
to the police, the same statement
that I showed you on the 8th of May'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'This statement is yours'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'I will only, it is not
necessary to read, but I am going to
show you as it is necessary to
confirm your statement and that it
is your statement.
CT'It appears to be, yes.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, thank you, and the only
anomaly is the incorrect date.
CT'The date, the date is definitely
wrong.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We had arrived on the 28th or the
29th of...
DC1485'April.
CT'April, yes. It was in April and
not in May.
DC1485'Well, I am going to help you
refresh your memory anew and back to
when this individual appeared.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'You have already stated that
is was on Thursday because this was
the day you visited your aunt.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And at what time, I need to
come to a definitive time with the
hours.
CT'Okay, mmm, mmm.
DC1485'What do you think, it was not
after the... and it was not before
the'
CT'No it was not late.
DC1485'I assume that I was there, I
was there between...we were there
around 11, 10 or 11. We took my
aunt, we must have left around
11h30, a quarter to noon, and in
order to go to the restaurant. Now
it may have been a bit early. We had
a coffee before we left and really
strange to me is the feeling that it
could have happened then'I feel that
it was when we returned and were
drinking coffee.
DC1485'Then you mentioned
previously, you said before that you
left around 6h30.
CT'Yes, we left.
DC1485'So, let us recap.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'How much time.
CT'We were there around, we returned
from lunch around 3h00 or 3h30, and
we were there from 3h30 until 6h30.
I know that it was 6h30.
DC1485'Then for a total of three
hours, and there were (inaudible)
for three hours, yes'
CT'It was minimum of three hours,
yes, because we were talking and I
had the sensation that we were
longer than in the morning, and
therefore, it was in these three
hours when I saw him and was looking
from the veranda. I know that it
will look horrible because it will
only confuse everyone, but if I were
to state that it occurred during the
morning. I am still not sure it was
the morning or the afternoon. I only
know that we were together on the
terrace.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But the truth is that I cannot. I
am trying my hardest to tell you if
it was morning or evening.
DC1485'Good, you left around 8h30,
sorry, 6h30.
CT'Yes, we left.
|
|
Cartas Rogatorias
Vol 4
Pages 27 - 72
CAROLE TRANMER STATEMENT - PART II -
CONTINUED
DC1485'What time before this did you
see the individual'
CT'It must have happened, I do not
want to guess, I cannot...it was
during the time we were on the
terrace, between three and
three-thirty until six, when we
returned to the apartment,
five-thirty or six because it was
cooling down, thus, it was in the
afternoon, and I hate to do this,
excuse me but it was on'
DC1485'It does not matter that you
are trying to guess, it does not
matter that you guess.
CT'If it was in the afternoon,
somewhere three, three-thirty and
five-thirty, because the sun was
going down and it was getting
colder.
DC1485'Well.
CT'Well, I am certain that we were
on the terrace between 3:00/3:30
until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon.
DC1485'Well, we have already been at
this for one hour and have made good
progress. We are moving along very
well. It is very difficult.
CT'Yes it is.
DC1483'I know.
DC1485'You were there two hours.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'3:30 to 5:30.
CT'Yes and if this did occur in the
morning, okay, it would be
between'we would have gotten there
around 11, 10:30 or 11 and left
around 11-ish, 11:45.
DC1485'To go to the restaurant.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, I think I am happy that
you saw this individual in the
afternoon.
CT'Yes, I, I have the feeling that
it was in the afternoon.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And it is not just because I say
so but, because we had spent more
time relaxing; they were talking,
and we had already eaten lunch and
were sitting and relaxing and well,
I am nearly certain. But as you know
there was that period in the
morning.
DC1485'Did anyone visit your
apartment'
CT'When we were there' No, no.
DC1485'No, okay.
CT'I am sorry that'
DC1485'So our window is between'
CT'3, 3:30.
DC1485'3:30.
CT'Until 5:30.
DC1485'And if I were to give you
hints, because you could ask
yourself this, was it at the
beginning of your stay, close to
3:30'
CT'Definitive at the beginning
because there was a lot of light,
yes.
DC1485'More, more than 5:30'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Well think, think about the
possibility of 3:30, would you say
4:30'
CT'4:30, yes.
DC1485'Well, given the window of
between 3:30 and 4:30'
CT'Yes. I suppose so. It is only a
guess.
DC1485'Yes, it is great, yes, yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me that
you were on your aunt's terrace'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'Okay, and what is there on
the terrace'
CT'Well, there is a table, a sun
umbrella, some chairs and potted
plants and very little else; a part
of the terrace is bigger than the
other with the end part longer, more
or less. The part where we sat was
covered and has a big enough space
for six people to sit, but I, I know
that I was standing on the veranda
when I looked down. I was not
looking in this way, I was only
snooping to see what was going on
below. It was simply a look as
follows, for this reason, I was
looking below and was not properly'I
cannot, I could not see very well.
DC1485'Then it was not a specific
look below, we will call it a
glance.
CT'Yes, yes, it is very difficult to
see below. One only had a general
view.
DC1485'Then was it necessary to look
more furtively'
CT'No.
DC1485'Okay, your path was like
this, when you were in the apartment
and walked out, can you see the
direction on the terrace.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'How much time to get there
from you room'
CT'Hum... we can there with a few
steps.
DC1485'Sorry'
CT'So, it is visible if we are
seated on''
DC1485'From the door or from where'
CT'From, humm... the door no because
he was looking more from the side.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'So leaving the apartment one
must get up but if one is seated on
the terrace.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'And if sitting next to the
terrace wall.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Can you see, is it possible
for people to pass through the top
and below'
CT'You can see this outside.
DC1485'Absolutely, yes.
CT'Absolutely, yes.
DC1485'Very good, sure.
CT'People would come and go.
DC1485'I can see.
CT'So you can see what is happening
at the top of and at the bottom of
the street.
DC1485'Okay. To jog your memory to
remember the topic of conversation,
I mean, you confirmed that the
individual called your attention but
after that you turned to speak with
your husband. Can you remember what
you said to your husband'
CT'Well, there are always talking
about the European Union, for this
reason, they always have discussions
about who is a member of the
European Union and who is leading;
these two talk a lot about politics
and speak, speak and after I turned
to get into the conversation as
well.
CT'Because they always have open
discussions, nice discussions but
...
DC1485'Nothing that comes to memory'
CT'Well, you know'he works, he is
contracted by the European Union and
is always saying that when he leaves
working for them, he has a big book
to write, yes'
DC1485'Was this individual
accompanied by anyone'
CT'No, he was alone.
DC1485'Okay, the next thing is the
description, this will be difficult
for you, I know, but try and
remember as much as possible even if
they are details that may appear...
ohh. Assume that I know nothing.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC14850'Okay'
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Presuppose that I have just
entered this investigation, that I
do not know about your previous
statement; that I know nothing about
this individual.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Where should we start.
CT'At the head.
DC1485'the head.
CT'Because it was what I saw first.
DC1485'yes.
CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot
of hair, very short, not like mine
but a little more, humm... but not
like a footballer, do you know what
I mean' A style close to shaven.
Very short, blonde, the head was
very sculptured. The shape of the
head was very sculptured, more oval
shaped.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw
him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it
was not dark blue, more of a pallid
colour and it was, humm... a type of
blue with short sleeves, humm... but
I did not see anything below, I did
not see the trousers or shoes or
anything else, only the top part and
he would have, I would say'humm,
when looking from above, he was not
short, I would say he was about a
1'78, about medium height. He was
not thing nor was he muscular. So he
was of average stature. I would say
he was European but not Portuguese.
He was not dark and, he was not
short, but I would say that he
looked Scandinavian if you will,
because he was very light and could
have been British or Scandinavian.
Even though I was looking upwards,
he had big eyes, there is nothing
else. He did not have tattoos,
nothing like this, humm'a person of
common appearance, it was his
furtiveness that called my
attention, humm, no, I can't'
DC1485'Could you give him an age'
CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say
that he was between, oh he was not
old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that
he was older than this.
DC1485'And his aspect'
CT'It was clear, he was
light-skinned, he had no freckles,
he was not sunburned, he was not
dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he
was a light colour, not white, white
but you know'humm..he was not one
who was exposed to the sun.
DC1485'And when he walked, did he
have any particular walk or limp'
CT'No, I never really noticed his
gait as I only saw him leave the
gate. He did not appear
incapacitated, hum' he was merely
ordinary looking, I did not really
look at his walk.
DC1485'You told me he did not have
tattoos; was he wearing any
jewellery'
CT'No, I did not see any jewellery,
no, no he did not have necklaces or
rings and as far as I could tell, he
did not have earrings.
DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to
me about his T-shirt, did it have an
inscription'
CT'No, it was a common shirt,
without inscriptions, it was light
blue in colour, or grey, it could
have been grey, mmm.
DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have
buttons or was it simply something
that went up to the neck'
CT'No, it went up to the neck and
had sleeves, short sleeves, but not
straps, of this type, just short
sleeves.
DC1485'Yes, and was it
loose-fitting'
CT'No it was not snug, it was not
loose, it was comfortable.
DC1485'Did it fit him loosely'
CT'It was big but not by much.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It was simply common, the type of
T-shirt one wears on Saturday.
DC1485'Yes, yes.
CT'With inscriptions or anything in
general, mmm.
DC'And he was well-shaven'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Yes without a beard or did
you notice anything else'
CT'No, nothing from what I remember,
because he was very blonde.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But if he had a beard, I would
have seen it.
DC1485'Spectacles'
CT'No, he did not have sunglasses,
nor did he wear spectacles.
DC1485'He did not use sunglasses'
CT'No.
DC1485'Okay, and for how long did
you think you saw him'
CT'Well, humm... the time it takes
to leave, shut the gate, look to the
side, look to that side, a few
seconds because he did not take very
long to do this, I would say that it
was for a minute or something like
that.
DC1485'And I know that you pointed
to the map, as you know, that you
were on the third floor and he was
here, this is, rua estreita, as you
revelead'
CT'No, no it appears, humm... it is
simply long, because the apartments
on the first level jut out a bit,
the veranda belongs to my aunt.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Therefore, when I say that I am
looking below, it is only really
looking below...
DC1485'And how, what is your
opinion; are you good at measuring
distances'
CT'If am am good in measuring
distances, recollecting faces,
mmm'very good. Are you talking
measurements in metres, yards or in
feet'
DC1485'Humm, in feet.
DC1485'Please continue.
CT'From where, where I stood'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Okay, I would then say, humm,
close to the roof.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It would be the measurement of
one double-decker bus which, which
is the measurement of a
double-decker bus.
DC1485'You refer to the top of the
double-decker, the double-decker
until the end'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'I though you said that you
were capable of being precise.
CT'Well, it is difficult, isn't it'
DC1485'Have you looked here to
outside'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Is it roughly the same
height'
CT'Humm, yes, but two, two floors
up.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Two floors and a bit upwards.
DC1485'Are the apartments have high
ceilings or low-ceilings'
CT'Humm, no... they are higher than
this.
DC1485'They are higher than this.
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Or it could be, we are
speaking, if I told you 30 metres,
twenty meters, thirty metres, 40
metres, which do uou think it would
be'
DC1485'Feet and inches
CT'Ahh... feet, if I told you, then,
I would from top to bottom it was
about' I don't know, 20 feet.
DC1485'Yes, because there we were
also on the top of a hill.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus 20, 30 feet for sure, I
would that it was around this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Because we were also on a hill.
But on the rua estreita I don't
think there is a relief.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'And the temperature, you told
me that the temperature was cold but
it was sunny on this day or were you
covered.
CT'It was sunny, but... humm... it
cooled down at night, hummm, I
believe it was sunny, mmm.
DC1485'It seems to me that you would
recognise this individual were you
to see him again'
CT'Yes, I would recognize him. Don't
ask me why but I know that I would.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me, when
we were speaking of his behaviour,
you told me that he left and shut
the gate very slowly after himself,
that he had to turn. With both his
hands.
CT'With both hands.
DC1485'He turned and pulled the
gate, he pulled or pushed the gate
closed'
CT'Humm... he pulled it.
DC1485'Because it opens from the
inside'
CT'It opens from the inside.
DC1485'Yes, then when you saw him
leave, he had to pull the gate in
his direction.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me that he
was doing this stealthily, what do
you mean by stealthily'
CT'Stealth, humm... someone who
would draw my attention, you know,
the normal way of entering and
exiting a gate, one opens the gate
and just leaves, but he did this as
though he wanted to make the minimum
amount of noise, that is stealthily,
and as if, he did not want anyone to
know that he was coming or going.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This was very, very unusual and
it was this that stayed in my
memory.
DC1485'This was the photo-sketch
that you reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles,
but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the
reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he
did not use spectacles and his mouth
was not like this, and his nose was
not like this, it is not the same
person.
DC1485'Then you are telling me that
this is not the photo-fit that you
made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did
not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not
very good.
CT'And it appears that he has
something on his chin that he did
not have, humm, but the format is
similar, he certainly did not use
glasses, and his mouth was
different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the
same, the format of the mouth is the
same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes, this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is
not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And
the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the
name of the person who made the
photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any
significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD
and did everything on computer.
DC1485'Okay, sure.
CT'But this, this is not like the
one he did.
DC1485'Well, there must be some
confusion. I would like to finally
ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela
FENN.
CT'Pamela FENN, mmm
DC1485'Speak to me about her.
CT'Humm, of what' Her age or her
type of lifestyle'
DC1485'Yes... where she used to
live, you told me that she moved
there in 2003'
CT'No, no ,no, she moved there
around a good 20 or 30 years ago.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Together, my aunt and uncle used
to live in Stratfield Saye.
DC1485'Where'
CT'Stratfield Saye which is in
Berkshire, the border with Surrey
and when they sold the house they
moved to Portugal. He designed and
constructed a villa, not exactly in
Lagos, but in the immediate
vicinity. They bought the land and
lived there happily for many years
until he got ill with Alzheimer and
for the last 10 years, it was she
who took care of him with the
exception of the last 18 months when
he spent his time in a facility.
When he died, she bought this
apartment, and she lives their
practically alone and the family, as
you know, we visit her with
frequency and she (sorry) goes many
times to the U.K. She has three
children, all married who also have
children. She therefore has
grandchildren, but she likes
Portugal, she likes the climate, she
is happy there, she has friends, and
humm... she would never return here
unless she had no choice
(inaudible), there is not more to
add.
DC1485--So she still has family in
England'
CT'Oh yes, the has three married
children and many grandchildren.
DC1485'Where do they live'
CT'They'one lives in Sandhurst, he
is a colonel and has been stationed
in Belgrade for about 4 years, the
other lives in Kent and owns a bar,
and the other lives in London and is
the manager of a marketing business.
All of them, the one in Kent has
three children, and the other has
one child and they, N***is in
Camberley and had two children. She
had grandchildren. After this is me,
I am her nieces and my sister, J***
lives in Guildford. For this reason
we are spread out and she comes to
spend the holidays and Christmas.
DC1485'Is there anybody in the
family called (inaudible), any
younger member called FENN'
CT'Yes, all of them. All of them are
called FENN. They are all men, for
this reason they are all FENN.
DC1485'They are all FENN.
CT'The whole family is called FENN.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'A series of FENN, yes
DC1485'And girls'
CT'No, she does not have girls.
DC1485'So there are no girls with
the name FENN.
CT'Only by marriage.
DC1485'And the children.
CT'They are all FENNs.
DC1485'They are all FEN'S. What are
their names'
CT'Well, there is'H*** and C****
FENN, they are married and have
***** and C***** who lives in
Camberley in Sandhurst which is the
military base, after there is S*****
FENN and his wife N**** who have a
daughter named M*****, for this
reason, they are all FENNs. After
this is I**** FENN who has an older
son, no two boys... I am becoming
confused, two daughters who are all
FENNs and she will have a
great-granddaughter this month,
sorry, next month.
DC1485'A big family.
CT'Yes, a big family, humm... and
her husband, my uncle's family was
from Australia, but I believe that
this is... mmm
DC1485'Okay. Finally Carole, I would
like to go over with you the photos
you brought with you, which you
showed to me before the interview.
CT'Mmm, mmm
DC1485'Please clarify for me, when
these were taken, who took it,
and...'
CT'Hum... okay, my husband and aunt
hate taking photographs, for this
reason he must have taken these, I
know that they were taken on Sunday,
a lovely sunny day where we were
seated, as was usual, on the
terrace. There are a number of
people there.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'There is the pool, there is the
overhang, which is not really an
overhand but a wall.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'A wall with plants from a
distance; like a passageway on the
pavement which runs until the
building.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This is similar to what one can
see now, and the reception area with
the roof.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And the people between I believe
are many who work at the Ocean Club
and who also live in the surrounding
areas, also in the locale.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'That is it.
DC1485'If we select this photograph,
I will show it to you, okay'
CT'This must be one of the better
ones, If I may say so.
DC1485'This one shows you,
CT'This, this shows me looking down
being curious, but this is not of
the other apartment.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But below there is, humm...the
terrace of the other apartment.
DC1485'Oh, that one... hummm. Where
the McCanns stayed.
CT'I did not know, but it must have
been, they had a type of patio
below, but the one I was looking at,
humm... was where the small gate was
located which is almost to that
side.
DC1485'That is the gate where you
saw the individual.
CT'Mmm, mmm
DC1485'Where you stood'
CT'Where I stood.
DC1485'I will (inaudible) see
something. Image 50590 okay, that I
what I will call it.
CT'Ah ah.
DC1485'Image 0590 is one of your
pictures.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And you are looking below.
CT'And I am looking below.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And tell me where is the
gate, in realtion ot the rest.
CT'Well, the gate is slightly more
towards the front, 69 centimetres
towards the front.
DC1485'To your right.
CT'To my right.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Right below where the McCanns
stayed there is a small patio.
CT'Yes.
CT'But I did not see if they had a
gate themselves.
CT'Okay. And after there is a small
apartment below that has a small
terrace and was probably there I was
snooping.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Mmmm.
DC1485'At what time of the day do
you think this photograph was taken'
CT'Well, it was... it must have
happened in the morning because it
was taken on Sunday.
DC1485'It was taken on Sunday'
CT'Yes, because the sun was out,
humm'around mid-day, I would say it
was around noon.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'This is good.
CT'This is all I remember.
DC1485'I will make copies of these
photographs, later, after completing
your statement.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And I have this as your proof
and evidence.
CT'You can have these because,
humm... they are on CD, and if they
can help'
DC1485'Right, okay.
CT'You can have them.
DC1485'I will see what I (inaudible)
can do with them.
CT'yes, okay.
DC1485'Okay, I will get up for two
minutes and ask my colleague if any
fact has escaped me.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Right.
CT'Yes, I will have some water.
DC MESSIAH leaves the interview
room.
DC MESSIAH returns to the interview
room.
DC1485'Hello, I have returned. I
apologise for the length of my
absence (inaudible), my colleague
was trying to get a better quality
photograph copy, the one I showed
him was very, very light, wasn't it'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Does this bring back
memories'
CT'Good, the one I saw was on
computer...
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And... hum, with the glasses...
he did not wear sunglasses.
DC1485'No, but if you could imagine
him without sunglasses, is it very
difficult'
CT'Yes, hum... I know that I have
had some difficulty with the ears as
well, but... humm, I think so.
DC1485'This was made by another
witness, who affirms having seen a
man who corresponds to his
description but...
CT'The one thing is that I saw him
from an angle.
DC1485'From below.
CT'From below, his mouth was
more 'hum' very delineated, it was
not'in this one it appeared more'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But, hum... the head looks good.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Humm, but the glasses and I do
not know about the nose, it was
more'mmm'but we all come from
different places.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'He did not have this in his chin.
DC1485'No.
CT'And he had a long face.
DC1485'Longer than this one'
CT'Yes, although I saw him from
above, I have (inaudible) because I
very much like this photograph.
DC1485'Oh right.
CT'For this reason, I am very good
at this. But not in measurements
(inaudible)'facial recognition,
hummm.
DC1485'Okay, but this one.
CT'Yes, the head, the cut of the
hair, the hair line was very
similar, mmm... but the individual
made him on CD, humm.
DC1485'What did he do'
CT'He, well, he assigned a document
to confirm that I was correct but it
was all on computer and'humm'he took
it back to Reading.
DC1485'He was from Reading'
CT'He worked for the Reading Police,
so I assumed he was legitimate.
DC1485'Did he leave a card or
another contact'
CT'Humm...
DC1485'Is the name recognisable'
CT'No, but it was all noted by the
Police in Reading.
DC1485'Where did they go'
CT'They, they went to my office.
DC1485'They went to your office'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'How many of them were there'
CT'Only one, with a laptop.
DC1485'I am not suggesting that he,
he'
CT'I was going to say that, I hope
he was legitimate, this was a long
time ago.
DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting
this, simply, I want you to help me
find him.
CT'I, I do not remember his name,
humm.
DC1485'You told me that he was
young'
CT'Yes, a young person.
DC1485'He was in his youth'
CT'Well, a computer genious, but not
one of those weird looking ones, you
know'hum, very much younger'humm, he
was around 25 or something.
Dc1485'Okay.
CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I
remember that he was very short,
humm'and was only'
DC1485'You have a fantastic memory,
did you know that'
CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has
something to do with my past,
because I was working, hummm'my
other organisation was, hummm'called
Reading because it was all organized
by them.
DC1485'Good, I will ask you to
contact us first, unless you have a
preference'
CT'I can check in my agenda when I
get home.
DC1485'And call me after or'
DC1485'I keep all my appointments
and if there is anything, because
when I was working, I was better
organised compared to when I do
nothing.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Perhaps there is something about
his name.
DC1485'Because he must have said his
name and the visit and you may have
made a note in your agenda.
CT'I would have noted it as I had to
also book the room.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I remember this, yes.
DC1485'Okay. Some questions that
were asked of me need clarification,
first you told me everything that
you saw when he was at the gate. In
what direction he was looking when
he exited; when he was preparing to
leave; when he began walking through
the gate and consequently, already
outside the gate'
CT'Well, he was looking in the
direction opposite to me.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus, he must have... I did not
look, I only saw him leave via the
gate, turn and here he did this
stealthily, slowly, at opening the
gate,. It was the manner in which he
opened it. He did not look to where
I was, nor did he see me.
Dc1485'Good.
CT'And... humm, I was more or less
with my back turned towards him, and
he used two hands to do this, which
was strange, and after looked in
that direction, to the left, and
left as I turned away.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'How much time'how much time
did he look to the left'
CT'It was for a bit, very
intentional.
DC1485'Like he was stopping to look'
CT'Yes, intentially to check to see
something, you know, and after
looking from one side to the other
before leaving; this is what called
my attention.
DC1485'Did someone else see him'
CT'No because my husband and aunt
were seated, but below the terrace
wall, so that they did not see
anything.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'I would say that has they not
been intently conversing regarding
this and that...
DC1485'You would not have stayed
there and'
CT'I would have, I would have called
their attention and asked them what
they thought of it.
DC1485'Okay. From what I can tell,
this is the end of the interview.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Very good. Is there anything
else you would like to add, given
that eleven months have passed when
you first spoke of this'
CT'Not really, there is only the
issue of what I have spoken about
and which had to do with the
apartment. I did not know that it
was the apartment below ours and,
humm'I did not know that they were
staying in that apartment; I was
focused on the gate. I had no idea.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Except in the Sunday papers, as
we have seen.
DC1485' Had you seen anyone prior,
anyone at all, leaving by that gate
before'
CT'Hummm... no, not while we were
visiting, no.
DC1485'And do you remember if it was
occupied at that time'
CT'I cannot be sure, I do not know
if anyone was there because it was
very early in the season, and there
were some guests staying in
apartments above the ground floor.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Was there anyone there, who
perhaps put out clothing'
CT'Yes.
CT'There were some, but that small
gate...it also gives access to the
apartments above.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'For this reason, I do not know...
DC1485'Okay.
CT'As you know, I did not see anyone
leave or enter.
DC1485'Do you know if your aunt knew
of anyone staying as a guest, or
mentioned that someone was staying
there'
CT'She probably knew, but she does
not talk much about this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'So this'humm.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'She knows some people from the
Resident's Association but I cannot
guarantee that she knew who was
staying there. She is pretty
reserved or at least tries to be,
but she does know the majority of
the members of the Resident's
Association and when there is a
meeting'for this reason perhaps she
knew that an apartment would be
occupied. Remembering this after so
much time has passed'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'She is very astute, you know.
DC1485'Very good. Is there anything
else you would like to add'
CT'No.
DC1485'She was given the opportunity
to clarify. Right, it is 11h10.
This interview has ended/
Signature:
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---> 121
XV
- Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER |
|
CR 2 page 121 |
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Questions from the Letter of Request:
XV - Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER, PAMELA FENN'S
niece, who lives in the apartment above the one used by the
McCANN family, to be identified by the Requested Authority. She
should be asked the following questions :
* Do you confirm your Statements, taken by the British Police in
the United Kingdom, on 8th May, 2007 ?
* On what day, in what place and at what time did you see an
individual nearby the apartment from where MADELEINE McCANN
disappeared (please locate it on a map or sketch it) ?
* Where were you at the time you saw that person ? Did anyone
else see him too ?
* How would you describe him ? How was he dressed ?
* What were his actions ? At what point were you no longer able
to see him ?
* What was his behaviour like ? Where was he looking at and how
was he doing it ?
* Do you recognise him in the photo-fit made by the witness
TASMIN SILENCE, which is enclosed to the Letter of Request ?
* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in
view of the previous replies. |
|
MISSING FROM FILES |
Carole Tranmer
Original interview and identikit not included in DVD:
In the interview of Carole Tranmer on 22nd April 2008, as recorded
on DVD, reference is made more than once to a statement given by her
to Leics police on 8 May 2007, and to an identikit that was created
with the assistance of a police officer from Reading. |
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