This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law




Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters part I/III

Person Interviewed: Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY Number of Pages 50
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 09.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1023 hours
Time Concluded: 1219 hours Duration of Interview: 116 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1578 GIERC Tape Reference nos: AJG213
 Other Persons Present
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00.00.16 1578 'Okay we'll start again, the time is ten twenty three am and thats on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight. We're in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I'm DC 1578 Andrew GIERC from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you kindly introduce yourself by giving us your full name and date of birth please''
 Reply 'Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY and date of birth is the eleventh of the eleventh, seventy'.
1578 'Thank you. Whats your home address please''
Reply ...........................................................................................

1578 'Thanks. Okay, just as an introduction, you're here voluntarily as a significant witness to assist in the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCANN, which occurred on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven in Portugal. You've been given a letter of introduction by Detective Superintendent Stuart PRIOR, do you have any, any issues in respect of, of that letter''
 Reply 'Mmm no'.

1578 'Okay. This interviews being recorded, video recorded and monitored by Officers next door from Leicestershire Police and also the Portuguese Authorities'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

00.01.53 1578 'And the purpose of the video recording is to maintain accuracy and integrity of the enquiry really'.
 Reply 'Mmm yeah'.

1578 'I would ask that when you answer questions, you should really concentrate as hard as possible'.
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'And take as long as you like and tell us everything'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'Please don't leave anything out, however trivial it may appear to yourself'.
 Reply 'Mmm okay'.

1578 'And if you dont understand any questions, please ask and Ill try and explain and if you need a break at all'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 578 'Just let me know. The interview will be in a number of phases, firstly I'd like you to recall and explain the events leading up to the holiday, the friendship within the group'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
 1578 'And who was in the group, how it was organised'.
 Reply 'Mmm right'.

1578 'Secondly, we'd like you to recall the, the erm, the whole of the holiday period in summary'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'If there was a regular regime'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'And, and that will include a detailed account of obviously the Thursday evening'.
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'When Madeleine disappeared. There will then be a number of specific questions that the Portuguese Authorities wishes to ask'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'And also a list of questions from Gerry and Kate'.
 Reply 'Okay

1578 'And then finally we'll cover any issues raised by the monitoring Officers'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Okay''
 Reply 'Okay'.

1578 'So let's go into phase one then, can you describe the, the make up of the group please and how you're all friends and''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Associated and so forth''
 Reply 'Erm well Matt, Matt worked with Gerry at the Glenfield, I dont know when it was though, I mean before, before Matt and I were married anyway , erm so thats how, thats how he knew Gerry and Matt lived with erm Russell and Dave, because they were all medical students in Leicester. Erm and then obviously everyone sort of ended up getting married to various people, I mean Fionas a Doctor, she married Dave, Russell and Jane got together, erm Gerry and Kate were married but I didnt know them really until we met at Dave and Fionas wedding in Italy erm in two thousand and erm two thousand and three, erm well it was just, it was when a few months after Madeleine was born, so erm thats right isn't it, two thousand and three, September, two thousand and three was their wedding and Dave and Fi got married in Italy and Matt and I shared a, sort of an apartment with Gerry and Kate and Madeleine, who was about three or four months then and you know with various other people, so thats when I first met Gerry and Kate, erm and then erm, I mean, we didnt really, wed see Gerry and Kate at sort of Dave and Fi's or, but we didnt really see them you know without, you know without Dave and Fi there really because they were sort of friends through them'.

00.05.44 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm and then there was erm, the next time I really sort of properly remember seeing them before we went on holiday, was at Daves fortieth, which was last April, erm oh, last April, no, no, erm was that last year, yeah it must have been, erm and then, no I dont think it was last year, it must have been the year before, year before last Daves fortieth, erm and then basically we all as a group, except Gerry and Kate went on holiday in September, two thousand and six erm to Greece erm and then basically decided to do another holiday in May last year, April, May, erm and just sort of the additions to the group then were Gerry and Kate and the children obviously, erm is that enough detail on how we know each other''

1578 'Whose idea was, was it to go on holiday as a group to Portugal''
 Reply 'Erm I think it was either Dave or Gerry I think suggested it, erm'.

1578 'Do you know who arranged the holiday''
 Reply 'Dave did erm cos we'd all, we'd all done Mark WARNER holidays before sort of separately, that was the Portuguese holiday was the fourth Mark WARNER holiday that Matt and I had done and we did a couple before Grace was born and then we did one with her, erm and then our September holiday in Greece in two thousand and six, you know was just so good because of all the kids and had a great time, it wasn't Mark WARNER, erm then we decided that it would be good to go as a group again, as again and I think Gerry just kind of said that he had holiday and is anyone interested in going and David said, you know Dave emailed round and erm kind of made the suggestion and then he, he was responsible for organising it'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm so he did all the bookings and things, yeah cos everything came to their house and then Dave and Fi forwarded stuff to us, tickets and that sort of thing'.

00.08.06 1578 'So the make up of the group then was''
 Reply 'Erm well Matt and myself and Grace erm Russell, Jane and their two children Ella and Evie, erm Dave and Fi and their two children Lilly and Scarlet and Gerry and Kate and their children Madeleine and Sean and Amelie, oh and, and then Diane erm Fionas mum was coming too'.

1578 'Okay so nine adults''
 Reply 'So nine, nine adults, eight children'.

1578 'Eight children. Were you aware of any hierarchy within the group at all''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Within the circle of friends''
 Reply 'No we're all sort of very, you know very even, everyone on the same level erm'.

1578 'Was there a particular reason for example that, that David booked the holiday, arranged it and booked it''
 Reply 'No erm I think, you know he made the suggestion so it was kind of left up to him to organise it, not for any particular reason erm when he puts his mind to things, he's quite good at organising things like that (inaudible)'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'No, I mean no reason really'.

1578 'So you live in London and you travelled from which Airport''
 Reply 'Gatwick erm Russell and Jane and their children came to stay with us on the Friday night and then we'd all, it was, it was all a bit weird actually cos it was almost like the holiday should never have happened in the first place erm because Ella was ill the week before we went, erm she had an abscess on her foot that she had to go into Hospital and have removed and so Russell and Jane didnt know whether they'd be able to come and so it was, it was literally a very last minute thing for them, erm we kind of didnt really know 'til the Friday morning whether they were gonna come or not, erm cos of Ellas foot, so anyway but they did and they came up to us on Friday night and we'd ordered taxis, or a taxi for the morning to take us to the Airport and the flight was about, I think the flight might have been about eight o'clock erm and we'd ordered a taxi and made it really clear that there were four adults and three children, you know plus all the luggage, so it would have to be a mini bus or something like that and then when the taxi turned up in the morning, it was just an estate car, well like theres no way we can get in that, erm so it was a bit panic stations and we both had to go in separate car, you know we took our own cars to the Airport and erm on the way, we're trying to book the, you know that valet parking, so that you just turn up and get out and they take your car off, erm I remember being on the phone going, travelling to the Airport and most of them not being able, but we eventually got through to one which we'd used before quite a lot, erm and so they could, they could sort us out, so we did kind of get there in time and everything in the end, erm but that kind of didnt seem to be a very good start to the holiday in the first place, erm and, and then we, the flight and everything was fine erm talked to a few people on the plane who were also going to the same resort, erm yeah and it was just, it was weird the way it was, cos then Matt was ill the first day and it was kind of, I dont know, if you look, you know with hindsight, there were lots of things that happened that kind of, you just thought oh well, I dont know, maybe the holiday should never have happened in the first place you know, if we hadn't have gone, erm everyone ended up being ill at some stage and, and you think you know, thats never happened before erm you know, none of us are ever ill'.

00.12.19 1578 'Just talk us through, talk us through the journey then from the Airport, over, over to, to the apartment''
 Reply 'Erm it was just on a coach, erm with some of the Mark WARNER staff, erm they kind of came round and talked about child care and we had various forms to fill in'.

1578 'Sorry, were there any problems with the flight for example''
 Reply 'No, mmm no I dont think so, think it was all fine'.

1578 'No issues with, with the flight out there''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'And the transfers and''
 Reply 'No, it was all, it all went quite smoothly, erm then we just got on a coach when we got there, got to the Airport'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm and they dished out you know maps of the resort and where our rooms were and I think the keys were in those envelopes as well, you know the rooms were pre allocated erm'.

1578 'So prior to arrival then at the resort, you knew which apartment you were in''
 Reply 'Yes, yeah'.

1578 'Which apartment were you in''
 Reply 'Erm 5B, which was next, which, erm when we made the booking, or when Dave made the booking, erm we, there was a bit of erm, I dont know, there was a bit of aggro about the rooms or some, something, or about the price, I cant remember what it was and then there was an email that Matt had sent, which I'm sure Russell mentioned, erm kind of which he'd meant just to send to like Dave and Russell but had gone actually back to the Mark WARNER representative as well, erm sort of being slightly derogatory I think and it was oops you know it shouldnt have gone there, erm and we'd kind of demanded to have all our rooms together. Basically I think, I mean Dave had chosen the resort and hadn't really read the small print, cos we assumed it was going to be like every other Mark WARNER resort where you're in a compound and you know thats all sort of gated off but erm this was different, it was erm, it was basically the village and the apartments were dotted all over the place, so you know we could have been anywhere, and could have been completely separate from each other, so we asked if we could, you know if they could really make sure that we were all together because otherwise erm it would mean you know we couldn't really have had dinner together or anything like that, if somebody was, you know we were kind of concerned about you know being at one end of the village and somebody was at the other'.

00.14.57 1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.

1578 'And who requested that''
 Reply 'Well I think, I mean it was, I think it was Dave or, or and there were various emails between Dave and Matt and Russell, I wasn't, I never seemed to be on the email so erm but I think yeah when it, when we realised there was no baby listening and that you know, potentially we could all be spread all over the place, erm we asked if they could make sure that we'd be together, erm and we were actually so, all the apartments were close'.

1578 'So transfer then from the Airport to the apartments, any issues there at all''
 Reply 'No, no, just on the coach, can't remember if it took, I think maybe an hour sort of thing, erm'.

1578 'And you were with''
 Reply 'We were with Russell and Jane'.

1578 'Russell and Jane and their two children''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'So there were six adults, three children''
 Reply 'Erm four adults, three children'.

00.16.35 1578 'Sorry yes four adults, three children'.
 Reply 'And erm yeah, just the coach and that was fine, got all the details about the rooms and the keys I think as well (inaudible), I think, we certainly got the number of the apartment, I can't remember whether the keys were in that envelope as well, or whether we had to kind of go to the Reception and get the key when we arrived, erm yeah, I mean the coach dropped us off at the Reception, erm so we might have actually picked up the key at the Reception but we knew what apartment we were gonna be in while we were on the coach, with all the paperwork that they gave us'.

1578 'In the welcome pack''
 Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.

1578 'Okay. So what time would you have arrived at the resort''
 Reply 'Erm I think it was early afternoon, perhaps about two-ish, something like that'.

1578 'This is on Saturday''
 Reply 'This is on the Saturday'.

1578 'The twenty eighth of April''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'Two thousand and seven''
 Reply 'Yeah erm'.

1578 'So talk us through what you did''
 Reply 'Erm we must have had something to eat, we had sandwiches on the plane, erm we arrived, I mean we would have put Grace down for a sleep, erm yeah I mean I can't remember now whether we did or not but you know she did have a sleep every day, so we would have put her down and it would have been the right sort of time in terms of (inaudible) she normally sleeps from sort of one 'til three, that would have been about right, got there about two, erm and I think you know, just sort of unpacked in the apartment and sorted ourselves out and then erm, and then I think Gerry and Kate and Dave and Fi and Diane arrived with all the children maybe about four-ish, cos they'd flown from East Midlands erm and got a taxi from the Airport to Praia Da Luz, erm so I think, I think I remember them arriving perhaps when Grace had just woken up or was about to wake up, erm and then at five o'clock there was erm you know a welcome talk erm in the Tapas Bar and we went down to that'.

00.19.24 1578 'All of you''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'As a group''
 Reply 'Yeah erm and I mean that probably lasted about twenty minutes or around half an hour, erm and I think, I mean there was, there was a play, there was a play area just by the Tapas Bar, so I think the children probably just played there a bit afterwards, erm and then dinner that night was at the Millennium Restaurant, which was you know sort of about a ten minute walk from where our apart, apartments were, erm I think dinner there that night was gonna start at either six or six thirty, maybe six thirty and we all trooped up there then for dinner, erm so yeah I think we just hung around, you know sort of by the pool and on the recreation area after the talk'.

1578 'So before we move on to your routine, a summary of your routine through the week'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'Let's just cover the apartment allocation'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'Just for the benefit of the tape'.
 Reply 'Yeah, yeah'.

1578 'You're in 5B'.
 Reply 'Yeah we're in 5B, erm Gerry and Kate and Sean and Amelie and Madeleine were in 5A, so they were on the end, then we were next to them'.

00.20.53 1578 'Yes'.

Reply 'Our apartment only had one bedroom, so basically the bedroom that Matt and I and Grace slept in, was the one next to the one that Madeleine was taken from, erm which is always the one thats shown actually, when they've sort of flashed up on TV, erm and then there was kind of a, a dip in the courtyard, there was a space and the courtyard there, 5C was empty, Russell and Jane and Ella and Evie were in 5D, and then Dave and Fi and Diane and Lilly and Scarlet were upstairs in, I dont know what, was that 5 something, probably 5, 5H or I or, but anyway they were on the floor above, basically above erm above Russell and Janes apartment pretty much I think'.

1578 'Just describe the, very briefly the layout of your apartment, 5B''
 Reply 'Erm'.


1578 'Access and so forth and what it was like inside''
 Reply 'Yeah okay. Well when you went in the front door, which was, you came to that through the car park of the main road'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm in the front door was the corridor here, it was a corridor here, the bedroom erm, the bedroom was kind of basically behind the front door and then the first room on the left off the corridor is the bathroom, then opposite that, there's a door into the kitchen and then basically the sort of lounge dining area bit was open plan and then there were patio doors at the end and a balcony and then sort of a bit of a garden and then a gate out onto a path that ran along the back of the apartments'.

1578 'Okay. Yourself and Matthew obviously slept in the bedroom I take it''
 Reply 'Yes and Grace as well actually'.

1578 'And what about Grace''
 Reply 'She, yeah because erm, we didn't, we dont really like sleeping in the same room as her but there wasn't really nowhere else to put her cos you know, obviously she was going to bed at seven thirty and then we'd have had to kind of hide in the bathroom or something for the rest of the night, so we put, yeah she slept in our room as well erm'.

1578 'Okay and the, that would have overlooked which side''
 Reply 'That overlooked the car park side'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'There was, there was kind of one big shutter I think and then a narrower one it you were looking out, erm to the car park, there was a wide shutter here and then there was a narrow one, erm window and shutters'.

1578 'In terms of entry and exit to your apartment, which entry or exit did you most frequently use''
 Reply 'We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we'd go out the patio doors and just leave them unlocked, erm cos you couldn't lock them from the outside but I mean certainly at night when we went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of hours, then we went out the front door and you could you know, double lock it so'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm yeah so thats what we did'.

1578 'Okay. If we can now move on to a summary of your routine'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday''
 Reply 'Okay erm'.

1578 'If you had a routine of course'.
 Reply 'Yeah I mean we did in terms of lunch cos yeah that other thing, that Mark WARNER resort is that it was only half board, so we had to find our own lunch, cos all the other resorts were you know, you get all your meals, erm so the Saturday night we had dinner at the Millennium, which was all you know, which was quite chaotic because there were eight, you know eight kids and nine adults erm it was like erm, we dont really want to be doing this every night, erm and it, well Matt, Matt wasn't well that night, he threw up a few times, erm so on the Sunday, he stayed in bed for quite a bit of the morning I think, erm and I cant, what did we do on the Sunday, erm, er, well you know Grace went to creche in the morning erm with Ella and Evie, Lilly and Scarlet, well all the kids went to creche, erm but there were Madeleine and Ella because they're older went to a different, they went down, their creche was sort of near the main reception of the Ocean Club, whereas the rest of them, there was Ella, Madeleine and Ella were down in the main reception of the Ocean Club and so was Scarlet, cos the sort of baby creche was down there as well and then the rest of them were with the creche pretty much just behind the Tapas Bar, so they were all in there. So Grace went to creche erm, cant remember what I did, probably tried to get some sun, it was quite, a bit chilly though but erm, erm and then erm we would have picked up Grace from creche at sort of twelve, half twelve I think and then that first day I think we just had lunch sort of in the Tapas but you know the menu wasn't really that suitable for your kids, erm and then took her back to the room to have a sleep, erm and then while she slept you know, we just kind of read outside on the, on the balcony on the veranda, erm that morning, there might have been some sort of tennis, you know social I think perhaps'.

00.27.18 1578 'This is on the Sunday''
 Reply 'On the Sunday, erm, might yeah, maybe tennis, social and then you know you decided whether you wanted to do tennis lessons or, that sort of thing and then, I think that must have been the Sunday, I remember sort of having a bit of a hit afterwards with Gerry and Kate and I think Jane, erm but it was just, yeah really just seeing what you know activities there were and what we might want to do for the rest of the week, erm and then, I mean Grace was asleep for about two hours, so she would get up about half three, four o'clock and then I think we just went to the pool, we discovered it was pretty cold and so she wasn't that keen on swimming, neither was I, erm and I think Matt was up by that stage, think he came out in the afternoon, erm and then we'd booked to eat in the Tapas Bar that night because The Millennium had just been one kind of a bit of trek and a bit too stressful with all the kids and it was, thought it would be quite nice to have dinner by ourselves, so erm I booked a table for eight thirty in the Tapas for us and we just thought we'd do our own sort of baby listening as you know we, well you know if we'd been in another Mark WARNER resort thats what would have happened'.

00.29.02 1578 'When you say us, who do you mean''
 Reply 'As a group so'.

1578 'The whole group''
 Reply 'Yeah. So basically we'd go and have dinner and then we'd sort of run back you know every fifteen twenty minutes and have a listen at the door and make sure nobodys screaming their head off'.

1578 'So you, you booked the table on the Sunday evening''
 Reply 'On the Sunday yes'.

1578 'For eight thirty''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'For nine adults''
 Reply 'Yeah, yeah, erm so the children had tea at the sort of, there's a little, the little area near the Tapas Bar, they had high tea there all the kids not just ours, they had tea there at about quarter to five, erm and then afterwards I think we just played in the recreation area and then you know Grace, I mean you know she's normally in bed by half seven, so we kind of stuck to the same sort of times as we did in the UK. Got her down and then had showers and kind of ready to go down to the table for eight thirty, erm yeah and then went down there for dinner, erm we'd take turns going back to, to the room to check'.

1578 'So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in respect of checking on the children''
 Reply 'That we would just check our own children basically, erm'.

1578 'How often''
 Reply 'Erm about sort of every twenty minutes, I mean we kind of, I mean Gerry and Kate were very good about you know doing it every twenty minutes, I think they must have been a bit oh okay, think its about twenty minutes so we'll, we'll go and have a look and you know so everyone went at different times, it wasn't like everyone suddenly got up to go and check, erm'.

00.30.51 1578 'Did you have any monitoring devices yourself''
 Reply 'No, no, but on that Sunday night, I dont, Matt didnt come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before, so he didnt, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didnt actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday'.

1578 'But there were evenings during the holiday when both of you''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'Were out''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'And Grace was in the apartment''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'And when Grace was in the apartment, would you leave any access insecure''
 Reply 'No, the patio doors were locked and the front door was double locked yeah'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'I mean you know, it wasn't 'til, I mean we hadn't checked whether the windows were locked or anything, you know it wasn't 'til, until Madeleine disappeared that we actually checked that the windows were locked cos I know which you know we should have done I suppose but'.

1578 'What do you mean by locked''
 Reply 'Well locked from the inside cos you'.

1578 'Locked or lockable''
 Reply 'Well locked, I mean we, you kind of assumed that they were cos the shutters were down and erm, then we left the shutters down the whole time, we didn't bother to open them, erm not even in the day, erm'.

00.32.04 1578 'How was the window locked''
 Reply 'Oh it just had some sort of little catch erm but you know it was just when Madeleine disappeared, we had a thinking well you know, could a cleaner or somebody from the inside have just kind of left it unlocked for that day, erm you know so that somebody coming in at night, could come in from the outside by lifting up the shutters and opening the window, you know if they'd come in from the, you know through the window, cos we could never really work out why the shutters were up and the window was open, if I dont know, no it was just our theories of how somebody might have got in, erm you know, if they'd come in the patio door, why would they have gone out the window, I'm sure that they could have just gone back out that way, or they could have even just gone out the front door, erm which would have been much easier, erm so one of the, our theories for why the window and the shutters were open, were that you know, they came in that way and then but that would mean obviously that the window would have had to have been unlocked, you know either all week, or sometime during the day you know, thats kind of a bit of a risky thing to do because actually you know, if, if they had been checked before the children went to bed and you know Gerry and Kate had found the window unlocked, then they would have locked it and then that would have kind of scuppered anyones plans for coming in that way'.

1578 'The locking mechanism on the window, was that key operated, or just manually''
 Reply 'No I think it was just like a little catch that sort of went, it was a sliding window erm, there might have been a button on the handle, erm yeah it might have been a button on the, on the handle and the window slid back'.

00.33.51 1578 'Okay
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'So thats, thats Sunday'.
 Reply 'Thats Sunday, erm so Monday I mean Matt, Matt was better, erm were we, cant remember what we did particularly, erm we played tennis a bit, we didn't have any group lessons Matt and I, we had a private lesson I think, it was supposed to be on the, we had a private lesson and it was supposed to be on the Wednesday but it was a wet day, so it ended up being the Thursday and I think before that, we just sort of knocked around on the tennis courts, erm with everyone else and everyone else was having group lessons. Erm Matt did go down to the beach and do bits of sailing and I think I just you know, kind of read my book and sat by the pool, erm was usually in the mornings while Grace was in creche and then you know we'd always get her at twelve or half twelve, whatever it was, I think it went 'til half twelve, so you know pick her up between those times and then after that Sunday, every day after that we ate, we all had lunch in erm Dave and Fi's apartment, erm it was you know, pasta or something for the kids and Diane would make sandwiches for all of us'.
 1578 'What time would that lunch period be''
 Reply 'It, erm about one really, by the time those kids were actually eating, it was probably about one-ish, so between one and two, erm Gerry and Kate didn't come up and have lunch there, erm because the twins didn't sleep in the afternoon, so they'd often you know, take a picnic and go down to the beach erm. I remember one, I think it might have been on the Monday that they came up to Dave and Fi's after, sort of after lunch but otherwise they did their own thing at lunch time and the rest of us went up to Dave and Fi's apartment and the kids had lunch there and you know we'd have a bite to eat as well and then we'd take, we'd take Grace down for a sleep and you know, so she was generally sleeping between two and four there, which is a bit later really than she normally does in the UK'.
 1578 'Okay and then in the evenings''
 Reply 'And then the evening yes, so on that, cos the Sunday night had worked well with us sort of eating dinner as adults and you know just going back to check on the children, erm that, but at the Tapas, they said they, you could only book in the morning, you couldn't kind of block book or anything like that, you had to kind of call them at you know, eight or nine o'clock and say that you wanted a table for that night, erm and because we were a big group of nine, erm I begged and pleaded with them to let us book for the whole week, a table at eight thirty every night, erm'.

00.36.51 1578 'When did you do that''
 Reply 'Because otherwise'.

1578 'No sorry, when''
 Reply 'Oh when, that was on the Monday morning, erm because you know otherwise we, it would have just been really difficult to, well have a, have dinner in peace and erm, er you know we couldn't really have gone anywhere else cos oh yeah, we'd have had, I'd have to take the children or put them, there was a like a creche you could put them in, in the evening when you went to dinner but you know we were all kind of, you know the kids generally go to bed at seven thirty and they're tired out, they need to sleep but if they went somewhere else, they wouldn't have slept and erm, and you would have been up late, so we didn't want to do that and you know the Tapas was there and you know the apartment, you know we could see the apartments just there, you know it was only sort of you know, birds eye view was only sort of you know, thirty metres or something like that, so erm and you know, and we kept going and checking, so that seemed like kind of a good option'. 


1578 'So there was this rigorous checking procedure''
 Reply 'Yes, yeah every night'.

1578 'Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday evening''
 Reply 'Mmm yeah'.

1578 'And of course Thursday evening''
 Reply 'Mmm yeah'.

1578 'So on, on a normal evening'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'How many times would, would yourself and, and Matthew have gone to check on Grace''
 Reply 'Erm I suppose, we'd sit at the table about eight thirty, so erm we probably went about two or three times each during the course of the meal, erm yeah, well Sunday night Matt wasn't there but he was in the apartment with Grace so I didn't check, Monday night we were both at the table, erm and we just took turns'.

1578 'And did you wear watches''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'So would your checks have been time based or meal based''
 Reply 'Yeah, erm well I mean they kind of felt like they were every sort of twenty minutes or so, but they were probably more meal base, it wasn't a you know, we need to go check in five minutes, it was oh well, you know we've been sitting here a while, lets go and check, erm I mean you know it wasn't kind of rigid and'.

1578 'So you tried to consciously go every twenty minutes or so''
 Reply 'Yeah, I mean there could have been'.

1578 'But there may have been some, some sort of overlap on the times''
 Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.

1578 'To try and fit in with the serving''
 Reply 'Yeah the food and yes, mmm yeah'.

1578 'Okay, and when you went to check on Grace, what sort of checks would you conduct''
 Reply 'Erm well we'd go into the room, which ordinarily we wouldn't do to be honest, erm but she seemed to have diarrhoea and kind of, I mean she'd settled quite well actually cos she'd been tired every evening, erm but every morning when she woke up, she had diarrhoea and it had gone right through her grow bag and so there's all of this sort of horrendous smell, so in the evenings when we were checking, we'd go into the room just to see if you know, there was any sort of smell yet, erm and just to make sure she was alright, to make sure she hadn't been sick, partly I think cos Matt had been sick, just wanted to make sure that she hadn't been, in case it was some sort of bug'.

1578 'Okay, and the route taken''
 Reply 'Was up the road and then in through the car park at the back and in through the front door'.

1578 'In through the front door''
 Reply 'Mmm yeah, I mean the patio doors were locked, erm yeah I didn't really like going up there by myself, it was, like going through that car park was quite dark and there was never anyone around, it was a bit, you know made me feel a bit uneasy'.

1578 'Okay. What about the lighting there''
 Reply 'Well there were lights, there were street lights along the road as you came out of the Ocean Club, erm sort of orangey you know street lights and along the main road at the back and the car park was quite dark cos there were quite a lot of trees that were sort of on that corner, erm and so the car park was quite dark and then when you actually got, you came down a ramp, or down some steps into the sort of area in front of the apartments and erm you know they were, there were sort of lights, you press a button and they come on for a certain length of time, so you know, you put those on to get to the front door, it wasn't pitch black but I'm not keen on the dark anyway so erm'.

1578 'Okay. So the day routines'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday''
 Reply 'Yeah pretty much the same, sort of just you know, tennis or pool or you know lazing around really, erm while the kids were in creche in the morning'.

00.42.07 1578 'Did you play tennis yourself''
 Reply 'Yes, erm'.

1578 'Did you take your own equipment''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'Did anyone else in the group take their equipment''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'When I say group, sorry I mean racquets and so forth''
 Reply 'Racquets and stuff, yeah, yeah we took our racquets, nobody else did, erm then we booked a private lesson, erm which we supposed to have on the Wednesday but I was ill on the Tuesday night, erm so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was raining anyway, so I think all, all the tennis lessons and everything were cancelled, erm but so I was ill so, I was in bed'.


1578 'And when you say we, you're referring to yourself and Matthew''
 Reply 'Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different I suppose cos it rained and things were off, although by the afternoon it had cleared up, erm and so on Wednesday night I didnt go to dinner cos I'd thrown up the night before, you know it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I'm never ill, neither is Matt, as long as I've known him I've never known him be sick, erm'.

1578 'So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace''
 Reply 'Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I'd been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they'd said they'd been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but'.

1578 'On the Wednesday evening'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
 Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.

1578 'On Wednesday evening'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to''
 Reply 'About half eight'.

1578 'About half eight''
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'And do you recall what time he returned''
 Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights'.

1578 'Why was that''
 Reply 'Cos they'd gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments'.

00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''
 Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.

1578 'Did you hear the patio door slide next door for example''
 Reply 'Mmm no, mmm no'.

1578 'Did you hear that sliding at any point during the holiday''
 Reply 'Mmm erm no not that I remember, I mean not'.

1578 'Was it physically possible to, to be in your apartment and hear the patio door slide in 5A''
 Reply 'Erm if our patio doors had been open, you probably would have been able to yeah, cos the, their patio, oh no, there were, erm, is that a win, just a window, because Gerry and Kates apartment was bigger than ours, we just had one set of patio doors at the back and then next to our lounge, it was their bedroom and then there were big windows there, I'm not sure whether they'd have opened or not, erm and then on the, and then next to them were the patio doors that were the access doors'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Or the ones that we used as the access doors, erm'.

1578 'So there was sort of a room between their patio doors and your''
 Reply 'Yes, yeah, I mean I think, I dont know, maybe, I mean if our patio doors were open and you kind of mmm, or if you were sitting on the veranda, you'd probably hear their doors sliding, but otherwise not, I dont think you would really, erm'.

00.47.52 1578 'And do you recall at what time you slept that evening''
 Reply 'I think I went to bed about nine-ish, erm but I couldn't say that for definite'.

1578 'And you didn't hear anything unusual''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Did you see anything unusual''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Anyone hanging around''
 Reply 'There was just never anyone around, that was the thing you know, it was just like dead the place really, you know which is why we, kind of all comfortable in leaving the children and going back and checking them, cos if it had been really busy, we wouldn't have done that, you know if there'd been lots of people milling around all the time, it wouldn't have felt right, I mean the place was empty'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'You know it was so quiet, you know it was the beginning of the season and erm, yeah, you know if it had been remotely busy, you know, it wouldn't have felt right leaving them and just going back and checking them now and then'.



578 'Okay. So we move on then, we move forward to Thursday'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'The third of May, are you able to summarise the days activities''
 Reply 'Yeah, the day was actually, it was different to the others because, well it was warmer weather wise, erm we went to the Millennium for breakfast as usual, erm we did that every day, Gerry and Kate didn't, it was just too far for them to go with the twins, so they didn't ever go for breakfast up there, I think apart from the first morning, erm so Matt, Grace and I went up to the Millennium, there was nobody else there from our group, erm and just as we were finishing and leaving, Russell arrived with Ella and Evie, erm Jane, because their tennis lesson had been cancelled the day before, Jane was in the, stayed back at the Ocean Club to start her lesson, cos that started at nine, erm and so I took Grace to the creche and Matt stayed with Russell, erm and they took Ella, I think they took Ella down to her creche and then the, Matt wanted to go down to the beach and go sailing, erm so I took Grace to creche and then erm Matt and I were having a tennis lesson at eleven o'clock, and so basically it just, you know I just sat by the pool and read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate, Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well, remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and Ella and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their creche activities, erm and Kate didn't have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and Ella, thats one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis b*lls, that sort of pictures'. 00.51

00.51.21 1578 'That was taken on the''
 Reply 'Yeah that was that morning'.

1578 'Thursday''
 Reply 'Yeah, erm so we sort of watched them have their tennis lesson, erm and there were a few other parents there, sort of taking photos and that sort of thing, erm and then they headed back off to creche and then Matt came up from the beach and we had our tennis lesson at eleven with Dan, whos you know, one of the coaches there, erm and then yeah that, well that went 'til twelve and then basically we got Grace from the creche then, erm and then erm I think we went to Dave and Fi's you know, for lunch as usual, Dave and Fi's apartment, erm and then when Grace was having her sleep, erm Jane and I went down to the tennis court and had a hit, erm cos she'd had her lesson that morning and I'd had mine so, we had about an hour hitting, just hitting the ball really, erm and Gerry and Kate were watching and erm and then we went back up and Grace was still asleep I think, so was Evie, erm so Matt and Russell went down to the beach to go sailing and you know, Jane and I said we'd get the kids up and then we'd head down to the beach when they were up, erm and then I think we ended up going down to the beach perhaps about, must have been about four, half four, something like that and Diane and Fiona and Lilly and Scarlet came down as well, can't remember where Dave was, I think Dave had gone windsurfing, yeah he, he was down at the beach as well, he'd gone windsurfing, erm so we just headed down to the beach, it was a kind of a much warmer day than it had been previously, erm so I guess we were down there about half four-ish, quarter to five, erm and the kids just played on the beach a bit and sort of paddled in the sea a little bit and Matt and Russell came in from their sail and Matt had fallen overboard and Russell had managed to go back and rescue him so, cos it was, it was quite windy and I think they were quite big waves and Matt couldn't see the boat and it was like, well this will be the story of the holiday, you know, the story to tell the grandchildren which is, you know which is what we said at the table at dinner that night, erm, erm, so they came in from their sail, Dave came in from his windsurf and you know, we just hung about on the beach for a bit, and then we decided that the kids, we'd give the kids their tea at the erm, there's a restaurant on the beach, I think its called Paradiso, erm give the kid, the kids their tea there, rather than go back up for high tea, erm I think maybe Russell, Russell must have gone up to get Ella cos she was at creche that afternoon, so I think he went up to the main reception of the Ocean Club where her creche was and got her, brought her back down and then erm we sat outside on the sort of decking of the restaurant and kids had tea, we had a few, you know a couple of drinks, erm there were some swings and stuff there and they played on that, in the sand, erm we were there for quite a while, certainly 'til about six, six-ish, half six maybe'.

1578 'So who was down there in the group on beach''
 Reply 'Erm, Russell, Jane, Ella and Evie, erm Dave, Fi, Lilly and Scarlet and Diane and then Matt, Grace and I. Gerry and Kate didn't come to the beach in the afternoon, I don't know where they were actually, erm although when we were on the beach, we, I think we saw Kate going for a run, she was running when we were, basically they all went to creche in the afternoon, all the children, so and I'm not sure what Gerry and Kate were up to but they, Kate yeah was running, I saw her running on the beach, probably about, that must have been about five o'clock something like that maybe, half four, five o'clock'.
 00.55.59 1578 'Did you see her at that point''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Yeah, she just run past us basically'.

1578 'Which way was she running''
 Reply 'Erm, well she ran that way, its kind of you know, if you're looking out at sea, she run to the left'.

1578 'To the left'.
 Reply 'And then ran back (inaudible)'.

1578 'Did you see her run back''
 Reply 'Yes, saw her run both ways'.

1578 'How long after''
 Reply 'Well maybe about ten minutes or something, you can only go so far along that beach and then you have to come back, might have even been less than ten minutes, you could see her kind of you know, going into the distance and then coming back'.

1578 'But Gerry wasn't with her''
 Reply 'No, no, he might have, if it was about, cos if it was about five-ish, then he would have been at tea with the kids, high tea, when the kids had their tea so, erm, but I dont know what time it was, I mean it might have been a bit earlier than that but it would have been more or less round about high tea time I think mmm'.

1578 'How many occasions did you see Madeleine on the Thursday''
 Reply 'Erm I think just really at, when she was doing the tennis, having her tennis lessons, as part of her activities, erm'.

1578 'Is that the last time you saw her''
 Reply 'I think that was the last time I saw her yeah'.

00.57.24 1578 'Okay. So you've gone from the beach back up to the apartment''
 Reply 'Yeah we went up, well erm but in the evenings, they had social tennis, which I think started at six thirty and went 'til seven thirty and after about the first, you know the Sunday and Monday night, nobody had really turned up and we said that we'd like to go but it wasn't a great time for us cos it was bath time and getting the kids ready for bed, so we asked them if they could move it forward, erm so they said they couldn't sort of bring it forward to five thirty but I think they brought it forward to six o'clock for us, erm and I think, so, so that on Thursday night it was mens social and erm, although I think it was probably about six thirty when we were still down at the beach, we've always kind of said, oh well you know, should we go to social tennis and we kind of said well you ought to because you know, they moved it deliberately for us, erm you know so that we could go, so you really ought to go up, erm so Matt, Dave and Russell headed back up to the apartments, I think that, it must have been about half six, quarter to seven, something like that, erm and you know we, we kind of followed, I don't know, ten or fifteen minutes later, I think the kids were eating their ice cream and erm, you know we came up after they'd finished, erm so we probably got up there about seven-ish or something, a bit after seven'. 



1578 'To where''
 Reply 'Er up to, where the tennis courts were, which were next to the Tapas Bar, erm cos that recreation areas just in front of the tennis courts, so we headed up there and the kids just played on the swings and slides while the boys played tennis'.

1578 'So who was there at that point''
 Reply 'Erm in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was Jane, Ella and Evie, Fiona, Diane , Lilly and Scarlet, Grace and I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, erm Matt, Dave, Russell, Gerry were there, Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday makers'.

00.59.50 1578 'So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already playing tennis''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'And you joined them''
 Reply 'Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching and supervising the children, erm and then I think shortly after we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then, erm and Matt, Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was the coach, erm and we, the children played on the slide and stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to get them ready and left the boys playing tennis'.

1578 'So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis courts to watch them playing''
 Reply 'I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe about ten past seven'.

1578 'And the only people not present would have been''
 Reply 'Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren't there, I think they'd, I dont think they were there anyway and I know that they'd left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before we arrived, cos I know they'd been there, I think when the boys had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to get them ready for bed, so I don't think they were there when we got there, erm no'.

1578 'And then a short time later, Gerry departed''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'To the apartment to give assistance''
 Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.

1578 'Do you know what time that was''
 Reply 'Erm maybe it was probably, you know maybe about twenty past seven, he didnt really stay, I dont remember him staying that much longer after we arrived there with the children, he obviously played a bit of tennis with the boys and then sort of decided to head off, yeah so its probably about twenty past seven, quarter past seven, something like that'.

01.01.58 1578 'So we're obviously approaching now the critical period'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'I'd like you to you know concentrate very hard and take yourself back and just relive everything you did from that point onwards, through the course of the evening''
 Reply 'Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can't remember whether that night Ella and, Ella might have had a bath in our apartment with Grace, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally'.
 1578 'Who's we''
 Reply 'Erm well Grace and I went back to our apartment and Jane went back with Ella and Evie to theirs and Diane and Fi and Lilly and Scarlet went up to theirs, erm'.

1578 'Leaving the men to continue''
 Reply 'Yeah continue their tennis. Erm I mean it would have been about seven thirty, maybe even a bit later, maybe about twenty to eight, I mean it was certainly later than normal, cos normally because they're in bed by half seven, erm went back to the apartment, I think Ella came and had a bath with Grace in our apartment, erm you know we often kind of went into each others apartments, sort of around bed time or just before, or just after, erm so I think Ella and Grace had a bath, erm and then I think we were reading books in the lounge area of our apartment and erm Matt came back from tennis'.

1578 'Who's we, who's reading books''
 Reply 'Erm Grace and I and I think Ella was there as well, I can't be certain about that though, whether Ella was there or not, erm but yeah, I mean Grace and I were reading and then Matt came back from tennis and you know we probably read another book or had a bit of a cuddle and then put Grace down, so she probably went down about, it was probably about eight o'clock that night, erm and then I had a shower and got ready for dinner and Matt did as well, erm and because you know, everything was happening, it happened a bit later that evening, we were later getting down to the table than we had been on, cos you know I mean the tables booked for eight thirty, erm and you know by the time we've both get ready and stuff, it was, it was probably about half eight or you know maybe a bit later, erm and I remember seeing, we saw Gerry and Kate walk from, from our apartment, you could see the tables at the Tapas, erm I remember seeing Gerry and Kate sort of walk erm you know, into the Ocean Club and across to the Tapas, erm so Matt and I kind of sort of you know we'd better get going and that was, and walking down, we went out the front, the patio doors were locked, we went out the front door, locked that, erm through the car park and walked down the road and I think I remember going across the car park and asking Matt what the time was and it was about twenty to eight, er twenty to nine sorry, erm and so we were a bit later, erm and then when we got down there, Gerry and Kate were there already and were talking to erm I think he was called Steve, Steve who had played tennis with us and his wife, can't remember what her name was now, erm was erm, anyway they were sitting at the table having dinner and Gerry and Kate were talking to them and Jane was there as well and she was sort of talking with them as well, erm and then we all sat down, erm Russell hadn't come down with Jane because I think Evie hadn't settled or both girls hadn't settled yet, so he was just hanging on until they sort of dropped off to sleep, erm and so Russell probably, Russell was the next one to arrive at the table and that was probably at about, probably about quarter to nine, maybe ten to nine, probably not quite ten to nine, you know like quarter to or eight forty seven or something like that, erm and then Dave and Fi are always late for everything, which there was a bit of a sort of standing joke, so erm and we could see their apartment from the table, their lights were all still on and obviously they hadn't got themselves out of there yet, erm and so at about five to nine, Matt said just he'd go up and get them and hurry them along, so he went back, yeah up the road and in through the car park, but actually as he was going up the road I think, he passed them erm and as he was leaving the table and said that he'd go and get Dave and Fi and Diane, erm he said he'd just have a listen outside the windows of the apartments, just to make sure there was no crying or anything, erm so he, he passed them in the street, they came and sat at the table and you know a few minutes later, Matt came back and he'd listened outside our window and you know, Grace was quiet and he listened outside Madeleine and the twins bedroom and that was all quiet, you know and all the, you know all the shutters were down'.

01.08.18 1578 'Did he tell you that''
 Reply 'Not at the time but afterwards, but I mean he said yeah everything was quiet, he listened at all the windows and also Ella and Evies I think, I mean I know he definitely listened at Graces and at Madeleine and Sean and Amelies windows and everything was quiet so he came back, I mean you know, that, and that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn't done that before you know, that hadn't been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other peoples windows, but you know, wed all pretty much just arrived at the tables and erm, so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm so he was back at the table by probably nine, or you know and erm and then a couple of minutes later, Gerry got up to go and check cos they'd been, you know by that time, they'd been at the table probably for about half an hour I suppose, twenty five minutes maybe'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm so Gerry went off erm came back a couple of minutes later, erm and then Jane went off at about ten past nine to check on Ella and Evie, erm and you know, and then you know yes she came back and everything was quiet there as well, and I think by, when Jane came back, we were all sitting down, we had our starters and ate that'.

01.10.08 1578 'What about Gerry returning''
 Reply 'Yeah Gerry had come back sort of, erm well you know before Jane had, you know he'd only been gone a few minutes I think, not very long, erm he said he'd seen, to met J, he'd met Jez on the way back, who was one of the dads and he'd been playing tennis and there was supposed to be a tennis tournament on the Friday and I think they were, they were trying to get teams together and he'd been talking to Jez about the tennis tournament, erm so he'd, yeah stopped and chatted to him on the road and he mentioned that when he got back to the table, erm and then shortly after he got back, Jane got back, erm we had our starters and, and then about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I'd go and check on Grace and Matt said he'd go and then Russell said that he'd go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we're going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, erm he'd been in and had a look at Grace, erm Russell wasn't with him, erm he told Jane that Evie had been sick and so Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and Kates and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you that, its just, you know, its not really, I mean its''

1578 'Its not your evidence, its what he's told you'.
 Reply 'Its not my evidence yes, yeah, you know its about what we've all talked about as a group, erm'.

1578 'Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in the room''
 Reply 'Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kates on the way but for some reason didnt, they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, checked on Grace, erm came out, went back to get Russell, thats when he discovered that Evie had been sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kates apartment, through the patio door, erm noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which'.

01.13.22 1578 'Which door''
 Reply 'The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleines bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut Graces bedroom door, erm or at least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didnt expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didnt put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didnt actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not'.

1578 'He didnt open the door''
 Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.

1578 'Wider''
 Reply 'Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know ordinarily we wouldn't, we only really went to see, to look, actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and I'd been sick and she'd sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn't open the door really, you know just they're quiet, they're not you know, as long as they're not crying thats, or dont seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out, shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and said everything was okay, erm and then and then our main courses arrived and we ate those and Russell was still up with Evie, so Jane ate her dinner and then she went up to relieve Russell, which is like our standing joke of the holiday, erm and so Russell came back and he'd ordered steak or something but they couldn't do another one and brought him his food, we'd all finished I think, erm so he was eating his dinner and Kate said that she you know was, must have been about five to ten then or ten o'clock, so Kate said you know, she'd go up and check, do her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and shouting Madeleines gone you know, and then we all just leapt up from the table and went up to her, followed her and Gerry, erm up to their apartment and erm and I remember sort of standing at the bottom of the steps, I didnt go into the apartment, standing at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors and I think Matt and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, erm and then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on Grace, erm and she was there, erm and then Matt sort of went back and I think he went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and I just stayed near our apartment really and Jane was, she didn't know what happened, she was looking after Evie, so I went to tell Jane what had happened, erm I think it must have been, must have been after we checked on Grace or sort of, after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebodys taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she'd been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she'd come back to do her check, erm she'd seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she'd been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they'd been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn't have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road, erm and so we, you know we had this discussion between ourselves, oh you know, it couldn't have been Madeleine because you know Gerry had only just checked and he was standing in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely somebody couldn't have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had literally just come out of the apartment, erm and we kind of you know battered that idea back and forward between us for you know, a couple of minutes, erm but you know, anyway'.

01.19.48 1578 'So what time did Jane tell you this''
 Reply 'It must have been about, erm ten past ten or something, quarter past ten I guess'.

1578 'And whereabouts did she tell you''
 Reply 'We were just outside her apartment but there was like a space between the apartments, erm sort of courtyard-y bit'.

1578 'From the car park entrance or the pool side''
 Reply 'Yeah, no the car park entrance'.

1578 'And who was present when she was telling you this''
 Reply 'No just me, just me, cos erm Fi was with Kate and, and Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys were sort of, had started to look around and started to, Matt had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to phone the Police'.

1578 'What was Janes demeanour when she was telling you this''
 Reply 'Erm she was quite shocked, well we were kind of bit puzzled, cos we thought well you know, could it really have been cos Gerry had just been in, erm but it was a bit of a sort of Jane was like, everybody gob smacked really that you know, she could well have seen Madeleine, erm but we did, you know we, we didn't have this discussion about whether it could have been just because of the sort of time of Gerry going in and him standing outside talking to Jez and you know, it would have been, somebody would have had to you know, sort of be very quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we didn't talk about that at that time but, you know afterwards, erm obviously that was, I think we kept, yeah I mean we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check'.

01.21.46 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'So anyway Jane and I you know talked about that and, and then I can't remember whether she told, I think she told Fiona then, erm I mean basically you know as soon as the Police arrived, she told, she told the Police'.

1578 'When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.
 1578 'To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn't go into the apartment'.
 Reply 'Yeah didn't go in'.

1578 'Who were you with at that point''
 Reply 'Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn't really run very fast, remember that'.

1578 'And then''
 Reply 'I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kates apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure'.

1578 'And then shortly after yourself and Matt''
 Reply 'Yeah'.
 1578 'Went round'.
 Reply 'Went round'.

1578 'To your apartment''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'How soon after''
 Reply 'Well literally like you know a minute, was sort of a minute, no more than that'.

1578 'And you've, you've walked past the front or car park side of the apartments''
 Reply 'Well yeah, you, well you go through the car park, you go up the road and turn left and then kind of cut in through the car park and then to get to our apartment, erm you go down a ramp and there was that courtyard area, I could draw it (inaudible)'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm because'.

1578 'There is, there's a number of sketches that I'd like you to do'.
 Reply 'Yeah okay'.

1578 'We'll come on to this, as you're walking across'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'Across the car park to your apartment, you've obviously, I dare say got Grace on your mind haven't you''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Did either of you at that point look across to the shutters and window of Gerrys apartment''
 Reply 'No, no, we didn't know at that time that they were kind of up and the window was open and the sort of view you get as you're walking across the car, you walk across the car park there's a diagonal to get to the sort of ramp that goes down into the apartments, so Gerry and Kates you know shutters were here, erm that you kind of come into the car park and walk that way, so I don't remember looking there at all, it was just like you know, get to our apartment and make sure that Grace is okay'.

01.24.36 1578 'So on the route that you walked to your apartment'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'Would there be anything in the way, preventing you from seeing the shutters, or would you have had a direct line of sight of the shutters''
 Reply 'We would of, well if you'd kind of, if you turned to look that way, you'd have had direct line of sight of the, for the shutters but we were walking that way, so and I think you know, didn't really look round, I mean there might have been a car parked there I don't know but I don't think there was, cos the car park was at this level and then there was a wall, erm and you know it was quite a big drop, maybe sort of about, like a four or five foot drop down from the car park onto the path that ran in front of the, Madeleines bedroom and, and the bedroom that we were in'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'So it was kind of down in a, I mean you know the shutters were there, at probably a car park level but you know there, there was quite a big drop off the car park'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Onto that path'.
 1578 'So lets just continue then, you spoke about the conversation you had with Jane''
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'What happened next''
 Reply 'Erm, erm it was just sort of you know, chaos really, erm Matt went down to call the Police, erm I mean people just, I mean you know Russell and Dave kind of went off and looked just around the roads'.

1578 'What did you do''
 Reply 'I basically just hung near our apartment, I didn't want to leave Grace, erm I mean she was'.

01.26.28 1578 'Did you have Grace with you''
 Reply 'No, no she was asleep and I didn't, you know I didn't want to leave the apartment by itself'.

1578 'No'.
 Reply 'Erm and Jane you know had Evie because she'd been sick, so she was sort of standing by the door, so I sort of you know, I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I'd go back and check on Grace, erm at one point, probably not that long after, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors of the block that we were in, erm and that was really the, that was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I think they were five floors or something'.

1578 'And that was just you and''
 Reply 'And Gerry'.

1578 'And what time was this''
 Reply 'Erm I mean that would have been you know about half ten or something like that, erm and then'.
 1578 'What was Gerry saying''
 Reply 'Erm I don't know, I don't remember, erm no I don't remember in particular, erm'.

1578 'And how long did you spend doing that search''
 Reply 'It was just really a quick you know, it would have been about five minutes, it was just up the flights and along the, you know the sort of verandas in front of the apartments, erm but there wasn't really anywhere you know, somebody could hide, well you know, if Madeleine had sort of wandered by herself, erm you know there were just really open corridors that we were just kind of looking to see if there was anything down there, erm'.

1578 'Then what did you do''
 Reply 'And then I went back downstairs and really just sort of stood by Jane and we were just waiting for the Police to come, erm which you know took ages, I remember ringing Matt at least once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where are they, erm and I think at one point he did come back up again and the Police still hadn't arrived and I think Gerrys told him to go back down and ring them again, erm and then, I you know, didn't really see him much or at all, I think they went off searching sort of down at the beach and around the village, erm and I just stayed up with Jane and you know, kind of checked on Grace every five minutes, just, even though I could see the front door, there was lot of panic situation'.

1578 'Did you, did you see the Police arrive''
 Reply 'Erm yeah I mean not to kind of erm, I mean I was aware that they'd arrived, I couldn't say whether, you know that I saw, they didn't kind of come and park in the erm car park, I was aware that they'd arrived, erm'.

1578 'What time was that then, where are we up to now''
 Reply 'Erm I think it was probably about half eleven, quarter to twelve, I mean they took a good hour or more than an hour to, to arrive, erm I think they arrived erm just before midnight that sort of time and it was uniformed GNR, uniformed guys, erm you know I think they went to Gerry and Kate first of all and then erm, and then I remember them coming, I mean obviously Jane wanted to tell them about seeing this person carrying a child, erm and by that time there were lots of people milling around, nannies and lots of Mark WARNER staff and people from the village, erm I mean I think that the Police went to see Gerry and Kate and then were kind of you know, wandering through and we were in that courtyard area and I think Jane got, I looked after Evie and Jane went off and told, I remember there was a, you know, but I don't know whether he was kind of the head guy or, but he may be a bit more senior, he had a blue uniform on I think, long boots, erm and Jane went off and told him about seeing somebody carrying a child away, or carrying a child so erm and I held on to Evie while she did that, then she came back, erm and then it was either shortly, I think it was, I don't know whether it was before that, it was either before that, or maybe it was at that time, maybe it was while Jane no, erm because at some stage pretty much, I think it was round about the time when the Police had arrived that, because obviously they couldn't really speak English, erm they turned up with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English but he spoke Portuguese and'.

01.32.59 1578 'What time is it now''
 Reply 'I think that was about, it was about midnight, half past twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I think they'd been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our way, think it was about half twelve, erm and yeah MURAT introduced, well you know he said, hi I'm Robert and I speak Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, erm and introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well with the Ocean Club, introduced herself and erm I don't really, particularly remember talking to the Police, erm but yeah, they, they were there basically and that was about half past twelve, erm and erm I don't, I don't know where Jane was then, she wasn't around, I mean she might have just been back inside the apartment, this is out in the, that courtyard area, erm and I think Russell came up then as well, erm and you know we were just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other people sort of hanging around and looking and you know wondering what was going on, erm but Russell was there as well, erm and then the Police just sort of moved on, erm, erm you see and I think at that time, Russell got Robert MURATS mobile phone number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day but I don't know, I thought it was then that night, cos he thought it might be quite useful as he could speak, you know cos he could speak English and Portuguese'.

1578 'Well what did you witness in respect of that''
 Reply 'Well I think at that time Russell got his number and put it into his phone, erm'.

1578 'Is that what you saw''
 Reply 'Yeah, but cos its almost a year ago now, I mean you know, Robert MURAT was definitely there, I'm absolutely a hundred per cent certain about that, erm and I think, and I think at the time also and I think it would be in my Portuguese statement, that Robert MURAT gave Russell his mobile phone number then at that time as well, erm although since times passed and Russell kind of says oh he thinks that might have been the next morning, I kind of half think well it might have been the next morning but I think at the time I certainly thought and I'm sure its in my Portuguese statement that MURAT gave Russell the phone number that night, erm, but yeah I mean, you know he was definitely there, irrespective of whether he gave the mobile phone number or not, you know I've absolutely no doubt that he was there, erm and, and then you know, we were just like you know, I just basically stayed in the same spot pretty much and checked on Grace and talked to Jane and erm you know, just lots of people milling around and people going off searching and shouting Madeleine and erm, and then you know we decided at one, you know at some point that we should go to bed and I think that might have been at about, about three in the morning perhaps, not sure though, I mean it could be, could have been, could have been much later, I don't think it was much earlier than that though'.

01.37.08 1578 'Okay, that's about it'.
 Reply 'Yeah I think from that night, erm'.

1578 'Do you remember the clothing that you wore that evening down at the Tapas Bar''
 Reply 'Erm yeah, I had white trousers on and some high heeled sandals which I then changed into trainers after, you know when we went back to check on Grace after we discovered that Madeleine had gone, erm and I mean I know I would have had my fleece and my denim jacket on because it was freezing sitting outside, you know and maybe a T-shirt and a jumper as well'.

1578 'Colours''
 Reply 'Erm well denim jacket, sort of jean denim, erm black fleece, which I would have had under my jacket, yeah so that's probably all you'd have seen of me from the outside, I think I, I might have had a red and white striped jumper on underneath that and maybe just a vest top'.

01.38.17 1578 'What about when you were eating at the table''
 Reply 'Yeah I had all that on as well, it was really cold in the evenings, you didn't take'.

1578 'Chilly evening'.
 Reply 'Didn't take enough warm things, so it was like the, all the jumpers that we had yeah'.

1578 'Okay. Do you remember what Matt was wearing''
 Reply 'Erm he didn't take many clothes either, he had erm, I mean I know over the top of everything, he would have had erm a sort of a windproof-y its not a fleece but that type of thing, which is like a grey colour and his, think it's Eider, Eider make, erm and I think black linen trousers I think, I don't think, or did he take jeans, he either had jeans on or black linen trousers and that top and he probably would have had a shirt underneath that, or you know, or a T-shirt, erm and I think you know maybe trainers on his feet, cos it was a bit cold for anything else really'.

1578 'Okay. Would you just sketch for me please the Tapas Bar and table and the layout'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm, erm okay, so that was our table, erm sort of here was about the inside of the bar must have been there and then when we arrived, Steve and his wife were sitting at the table here and then here there was like a big plastic sheet, erm'.

1578 'And where's the apartment block''
 Reply 'And then there's the pool here and then the apartments are here'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'And that's Gerry and Kates and ours and then that, and then that, that must have been Janes there and Dave and Fi above'.

1578 'Now this plastic sheet'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'What position was that in when you were eating on that Thursday evening''
 Reply 'Think it was down'.

1578 'And what's its construction, can you see through it or''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Just a window or''
 Reply 'No its a clear plastic, you know sort of quite thick but you could see through it'.
 01.40.57 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'So here's the table where you all sat'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'The nine of you, do you know who sat where''
 Reply 'I was trying to remember this but I mean, I sat here, erm I think I was in between Jane and Russell, erm and then, Kate was there, erm there's Russell and then I think, then Matt next door so, erm I think it was erm Dave was sort of here and Gerry was here, Dave, only Diane then and Matt and then Fiona there. I think yeah'.

1578 'Thats the best of your recollection''
 Reply 'Yeah, well I know I was definitely sitting here, I'm absolutely certain about that, erm and I think I was in between Russell and Jane because the starter that they had was a shared one and they kind of, you know, shared it across me, erm and yeah and I think Kate was on, certainly on this side, cos I remember her getting up to say she was going to check and then Matt and Russell saying you know, do you want us, us to go, erm and we'd had that conversation at the beginning of dinner about, we kept saying I hope they'll be okay cos I think last night they were crying and they said you know, when we were crying, erm yeah and I think and Fi was definitely over here somewhere, think she must have been next to Kate, erm and I think, I think Diane was in, she was either in between Dave and Matt or, or Dave and Russell, I mean Matt might have been down there maybe, erm Dave might have been the other way round, I'm not sure there, couldn't say for definite'.

01.44.06 1578 'Let's put a little question mark against there'.
 Reply 'Mmm. Otherwise I think, well you know, I was definitely here I know that and I'm pretty certain about the, these four'.

1578 'Okay, if you're happy with those then, if you underline those'.
 Reply 'Yeah, erm, erm I think the rest, I think thats about right, its maybe this bit here that I'm not quite sure about'.

1578 'And from where you were sat, what was your view like of the apartments''
 Reply 'Erm well yeah I could see, I mean I could see the patio doors of ours and Gerry and Kates'.

1578 'How much of the patio doors''
 Reply 'Erm well kind of the top half really'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply "Yeah you know, I didn't get a full you know, you couldn't get a full view sort of right in, cos there were bushes, there were bushes and stuff there, erm'.

 1578 'Was there any point during the meal that evening when you, when you consciously looked over at the patio doors, just from a security conscious point of view''
 Reply 'Mmm, erm I might have done but, I mean I probably did look up now and then, just to kind of, I mean not, you know I didn't specifically think oh I've got to look every now and then to make sure the, you know, I could still everything, erm I mean I'm sure I did look up and see, and see the door, you know see the patio doors, just because, you know you kind of feel comforted don't you if you can see, erm you know if you can see something'.

1578 'Of course you were safe in the knowledge that yours was locked''
 Reply 'Yes I mean if they're unlocked, I don't know whether I'd have looked up any more, I suppose maybe I would have done, I don't know, I mean that's yeah, I mean ours were locked so'.

01.46.38 1578 'Do you want to just mark that up with, with your initials''
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'RMJM, we'll call that 100/100, R M J M100 yes''
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'I did do a table drawing at the time when I was interviewed in Portugal'.

1578 'Oh did you''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Oh sorry, I wasn't aware of that okay. This is the plan of the Resort'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'And the Tapas Bar is over here''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Which route would you have taken when you went to check on the apartments''
 Reply 'Erm, there was a path down here, right here, then up the road (inaudible) and then in here and then the kind of, the entrance to the, to the apartments is sort of here, with a little ramp down, so that'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'And then (inaudible) our apartment was about, sort of here, the door, cos the door to Gerry and Kates was kind of on the front, the door to ours was on the side'.

1578 'I think that, that may be'.
 Reply 'Is that supposed to be''

1578 'One apartment'.
 Reply 'Right okay'.

01.48.26 1578 'So you would have been next door wouldn't you''
 Reply 'Yep, that looks a bit big to be one, I think it would have been about, would have been a lot in that block'.

1578 'Would there''
 Reply 'Yeah. Erm cos there was this little alleyway between these two blocks and erm there would have been probably about, maybe about eight across here'.
 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm but yeah the door to our apartment was sort of on the side here'.

1578 'Lets get the, another piece of paper, if you want to expand on that view'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

1578 'Just a larger scale if you like'.
 Reply 'So yeah, erm, sort of Gerry and Kates apartment is sort of like that, and ours was like this, then came down, my front door was sort of here, their front door was there, erm and then across here there's erm the door to apartment C was here, (inaudible) went across a bit more and the door to apartment D which was Russell and Janes was there, then it went out again, then that, so this is that sort of courtyard-y bit and then this is the wall here'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'This is the (inaudible) down, this is the car park, erm and, and there's, there was a lift here, a lift and stairs up to the next floor, erm and then there was a ramp that sort of came round here from the car park bit, erm and then this side, what's that by the steps, the side of the steps, and there's steps down here, (inaudible) yeah that's the car park, then the road was up here, there's an entrance into the car park as well er, that's okay (inaudible) about that, down the steps and then to our door'.

1578 'This is when you went to check on Grace''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'So how close would you have been to the shutters''
 Reply 'Erm, thats the door, there were shutters, think they only had one set of shutters in their room and we had two sets (inaudible), erm well I mean not particularly close, erm and sort of walk this way, so erm it would probably be, erm about ten yards'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'That would be about right, erm yeah, I mean certainly from here to the shutters would be, so yeah you know when you're getting kind of, I mean the closest you would be, I suppose would be when you're about here and that would probably be about, erm be like fifteen feet away or something like that, twenty feet in length'.

01.54.01 1578 'Are there any street lamps in this car park area''
 Reply 'No, there were street lamps on the road, I think there were street lamps on this street, which is where you come up, but erm and you know a couple of street lamps probably along this road, but the, the car park wasn't, I don't think was lit, there were, there were lights in here and then when you actually got in here, there were extra lights to put on, erm and I don't think there were any lights in the car park'.

1578 'Whereabouts did you have a chat with Jane when she told you about the man and child''
 Reply 'Erm just here'.

1578 'Do you want to mark that sort of position, Rachael and Jane okay. So if we call this RMJM101, that 102. We're getting quite close to the end of, of this tape now'.
 Reply 'Right'.

1578 'So its probably a good point to conclude this interview'.
 Reply 'Okay'.
 1578 'We'll have a break'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'And continue in a short while'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

1578 'Probably have some lunch actually'.
 Reply '(Inaudible)'.

01.55.52 1578 'Okay, the time is twelve nineteen and this interview is ceasing'.


Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters part II/III


00.00.06 1578 'Okay the time is one forty seven pm and thats on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight. We're in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I'm DC 1578 Andrew GIERC of the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you give me your full name and date of birth please''
 Reply 'Er Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY, eleventh of the eleventh, seventy'.

1578 'Thank you very much. This is the second interview of today Rachael and we've discussed over the first interview, the build up to the holiday, the association of the group and you've then taken us through a summary of daily routines, upon arrival at the Resort and we've gone into some detail in respect of the activities on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven, the day of course that Madeleine disappeared'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'I have a list of questions here from the Portuguese Authorities that I'd like to go through with you. Firstly, could you clarify to me please your mobile phone number''
 Reply 'Yeah ........
 'And is that the number you had in Praia''
 Reply 'Yes, mm yeah'.

00.01.45 1578 'Okay. Do you know who the user is of a mobile number, .......
 Reply 'No, ......

1578 'No, you've just says ... could it have been a Portuguese number''
 Reply 'Erm, just say it again''

1578 '...'.
 Reply '...'.

1578 '......''
 Reply 'No, no idea, I mean I've got my phone, I could look'.

1578 'Okay, do you have it with you''
 Reply 'I do yeah but, is there any way'.

1578 'This phone number'.
 Reply 'Yeah, is it a number that I rang''

1578 'Called yourself'.
 Reply 'Right'.

1578 'At twenty two thirty six twenty five hours on the fourth of the fifth, so on the Friday'.
 Reply 'On Friday'.

1578 'Just after ten thirty in the evening'.
 Reply 'Erm, erm okay well let me just have a look at my mums number, oh thats, that ends in ..., thats not right is it, erm 7, what did it end in again''

1578 'It ends in 3319'.
 Reply '...., erm, erm did you say it called me, or I called it''

1578 'That number called your mobile'.
 Reply 'Ten thirty, (inaudible), well I don't know, the only people that, well I think the only people I spoke to, I know that a client did ring me one of the days but it wouldn't have been ten thirty at night, erm it was either that Friday or the following Friday to cancel an interview that was happening but I mean that wouldn't have been at ten thirty at night, erm I would think, I mean I suppose it could, it might have been a Journalist, because on the night that Madeleine disappeared, on the Thursday, a friend of mine, or friends of Matts and mine, Kath and James LANDALE and James LANDALE's a BBC News erm and at the time he was like Political Correspondent, erm I saw him the other night actually reading the news on BBC News 24 but I rang him, or I rang his wife Kath cos I had her mobile number, erm basically to say you know that Madeleine had gone missing, was there any way that we could get it on the news and that was, that was on the Thursday night, so I suppose and it was the loc, it was the, was it the Local Elections or something happening that day''

00.05.56 1578 'I dont know'.
 Reply 'There were some sort of Elections, must have been Local Elections and James was out, away reporting on that but anyway Kath put me in touch with him and I spoke to him and I spoke to a couple of people on the BBC News 24 desk, so I mean you know, it must'.

1578 'That was on the Thursday evening''
 Reply 'That was on the Thursday night'.

1578 'What time would that have been''
 Reply 'Well that was sort of you know, midnight after midnight (inaudible)'.

1578 'And this was just after ten thirty pm, twenty two thirty six''
 Reply 'On the thir, but that was on the fourth''

1578 'Yes sorry you're correct on the fourth, Friday so'.
 Reply 'Yeah, I mean it could have been somebody calling I suppose in relation to that possibly, erm but otherwise, I mean I only really spoke to you know, sort of my mum and sort of you know, close friends and family, erm and then you know, well Kath, Kath, James' wife and then James rang me and I think I rang him back and then a couple of people from the BBC News 24 rang, but that was the Thursday night'.

00.07.10 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm and actually I do remember actually, on the Friday, my phone went a lot with lots of different BBC people ringing at various times, so that could have gone on until the evening'.

1578 'Alright then, we move on. Who is the user of phone number ......''
 Reply '... erm'.

1578 'There are a number of text exchanges between you and that person both ways'.
 Reply 'Right'.

1578 'On the second of the fifth and also fourth of the fifth, one, two, three, four, five, there were six messages, exchanges on the second'.
 Reply 'Okay right'.

1578 'And five exchanges on the fourth'.
 Reply 'Erm'. 


1578 'It ends ....'.
 Reply '...., I think, I don't (inaudible), .... my mum'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'So the next question is what kind of relationship is there between you and that person''
 Reply 'It's my mother'.

1578 'Do you recall the nature of those messages''
 Reply 'No, I mean it would be having a nice time, you know that kind of thing, certainly on the second anyway, not the fourth, erm no, no just we were telling her what we'd been up to or telling her what the weather was like, something like that, nothing'.

00.10.11 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'And then'.

1578 'What's, what's your mums name''
 Reply 'Barbara MAMPILLY'.

1578 'Barbara MAMPILLY''
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'What address does Barbara live''
 Reply 'In Wales'.

1578 'Do you know the address''
 Reply 'Yep, erm ..........

1578 'Thank you'.
 Reply 'Mmm yeah I mean on the fourth it would be obviously telling her about Madeleine and thats the sort, I mean she rang me in the morning, I remember that, cos she'd heard it on the radio, she heard it on the eight o'clock news I think so and rang'.

1578 'So we go on to the next one'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 '.......''
 Reply '...., when did I call them or''

1578 'They sent you a text message at eleven thirty three hours on the third, 1103 hours on the fourth and then they phoned you at twelve thirty two on the fourth'.
 Reply 'Okay, erm so what did the number end in again''

1578 '..., and again the same questions, what's the nature of your relationship and the nature of the calls''
 Reply '...., that's my sister, Ruth MAMPILLY'.

1578 '.....
 Reply 'Yeah ....'.

1578 '.... Sorry, what's her name''
 Reply 'Ruth MAM, MAMPILLY yeah'.

1578 'Ruth MAMPILLY. Whereabouts does Ruth live''
 Reply 'She lives in Cardiff, erm her address is ........................ erm , which is not sure what the post code is, it might be .... or something but I'm not sure'.

01.12.58 1578 'Okay, and who does Ruth live with''
 Reply 'Erm her fianc' Mark SUTTON'.

1578 'Okay, and again do you recall the, the nature of the texts and call''
 Reply 'No, so text her on that, well she, well one of us texted that night on the third did we''

1578 'She sent you a text at eleven thirty three am'.
 Reply 'Oh am okay'.

1578 'On the third'.
 Reply 'Right'.

1578 'She sent you another text, 1103 am on the fourth and then she called you at twelve thirty two'.
 Reply 'Okay, I mean on the third in the day, that morning text, is probably just you know, having, you know having a good time, something like that, erm and I mean on the fourth it would, she would have been ringing, er texting and then ringing to just you know see if we're alright really and see what was happening, erm and she would, she'd again, she, well she would have spoken to my mum I expect and then you know heard about it on the news over there'.

00.14.24 1578 'Okay. The next one is ......'.
 Reply 'Mmm ...., erm ... did it end in''

1578 '.... yes'.
 Reply 'Yeah that was Kath LANDALE, James LANDALES wife, I used to work with Kath, that's how we know them, she was a Solicitor and so was I, erm'.

 1578 'Whereabouts does Kath live''
 Reply 'Erm in Hampshire'.

 1578 'Do you know the address''
 Reply 'Erm you know it's something like, erm something............... mmm I mean no, not really'.
 1578 'No, don't worry. So again the relationship between you, is that you used to work together''
 Reply 'I used to, yeah Kath and I used to work together and erm her husband James is a BBC Political Correspondent'.

 1578 'The contact between yourself and, and Kath'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 1578 'Was all on the fourth, starting at one forty two in the morning'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

 1578 'Where you called her number'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 1578 'She called you back at one fifty eight'.
 Reply 'Mmm yeah'.

 1578 'For about, well nearly seven minutes and she called you back again two twenty two am'.
 Reply 'Right, I mean I called her initially to, cos I didn't have their home number, I just had Kath's mobile, so to try and get hold of James and then she said yeah, he, he wasn't at home cos of the Elections, so she said she'd get in touch with him and then call me back, or somebody would call me back, so she called me back and I think I remember then giving her details of where we were and you know how old Madeleine was and that sort of thing and then I think she passed that on again to, to James, erm and then obviously, then must have rang me back then and just said, I think maybe on her last phone call she might have rung me back and said somebody from News 24 would call me, erm or, or that James would call me or something, cos I did speak to James on the night as well I think, erm but I spoke I think a few times to some, to somebody from the BBC News 24, erm so those conversations'.

 00.18.30 1578 'On Kath's phone''
 Reply 'No, no, they'.

 1578 'They called you back''
 Reply 'Yeah they would have been, I mean they would have either have been London numbers or erm, or mobile numbers I guess'.

 1578 'There's a total of nine contacts between yourself and Katherine's mobile one way or the other'.
 Reply 'Oh right'.

 1578 'Between one forty two am on the fourth'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 1578 'And twelve thirty nine pm on the fourth'.
 Reply 'Right, well that would have just been between me and Kath and just probably her just finding out what was happening'.

 1578 'Just giving'.
 Reply 'And if anyone had contacted us and I think'.

 1578 'The last one, two, three, four, five, the last six contacts were text messages'.
 Reply 'Mmm right'.

 00.19.27 1578 'Either way, I don't suppose you'd still have those text messages on your phone''
 Reply 'No, no sorry I'm a bit, anything like that and I get rid of everything, erm, actually I didn't, I should have brought with me, I've got lots of scraps of paper from that, you know from the third onwards of different numbers that I took from people from the BBC and newspapers and stuff like that, people who'd rung me and then email addresses and all that sort of thing, I didn't bring any of those with me, cos basically as soon as I'd rung Kath and you know somebody from News 24 rang me back at some stage for the, basically from then on, my number seemed to obviously have gone everywhere and had loads of reporters ringing newspapers and'.

 1578 'Right'.
 Reply 'And I've got various numbers written down on bits of paper'.

 1578 'Okay the next number it's rather an odd number'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 1578 'It's, it starts as they all do, it starts with ..'.
 Reply 'Right'.

 1578 'But for simplicity when I've been asking you about mobiles'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

 1578 'I've taken the .. off and added a zero'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

 1578 'This full number is ..'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

 1578 '........... and you received a call from them at zero two thirty three on the fourth of the fifth, so half two in the morning on the fourth'.
 Reply 'Morning, I should imagine that would have been somebody from the BBC I expect, erm, can I write that, can I write it down just so I can see it''

 00.21.58 1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm got a bit of paper, thanks so'.

1578 '..'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 ................. and that was timed at two thirty three twenty eight, two thirty three twenty eight seconds'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'On the fourth of the fifth'.
 Reply 'Yeah, that's a funny number, erm'.

1578 'And again the same questions, what's the relationship between you and that person and what was the nature of the call''
 Reply 'Mmm, I mean I don't recognise the number and I can only look in my, I can't, do you know how to look at just numbers in here, erm, erm unless it was like you know the Consulate or something but otherwise (inaudible), erm ... no, I mean I've got Bill HENSON's number who was the, was either Consulate or the Ambassador, it's not that number but that's got as many numbers in, so it could either have been the, you know like the British Embassy in Portugal, or it would be somebody from the BBC, otherwise I think'.

1578 'Okay. Right the next number .................................
 Reply 'Erm'.

1578 'And you contacted that number once on the second at nine fifty seven am and twice on the fourth, eight ten am and twelve thirty four pm'.
 Reply 'Erm, erm'.

1578 'No''
 Reply 'Got no idea'.

00.26.03 1578 'Would it help if I''
 Reply '(Inaudible) me to ring somebody on the second and it would, would have said it was, you know, it might have been a work related thing and then I wouldn't, I don't think I'd have been ringing anyone at sort of ten past eight on Friday, erm'.

1578 'Would it help if I suggest that it could be a customer service number of some sort, what Network are you on''
 Reply 'Erm I'm on Orange but I think I might have been on Vodafone then (inaudible)'.

1578 'So could it be a message retrieval system or something''
 Reply 'Oh yeah, voicemail, (inaudible)......... voicemail'.

1578 'So does that indicate that someone's left you a message and you've picked the message up''
 Reply 'Yes and that's picking it up yes, yeah'.

1578 'Again can you recall the nature of the message''
 Reply 'No, no, on the, on the second you know it would either have be my mum, my sister, it might have been somebody at work leaving me a message, you know, I mean nobody, it wouldn't have been anyone import, well you know not, you know, I don't, any really on holiday I will speak to kind of my mum and my sister, erm and yeah I suppose work might be the other thing, picking up a message from somebody at work probably, I mean on holiday I had my phone switched off in the day and I just check it for messages in the evening, or you know when we came back at lunch or something like that perhaps'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'I didn't, I didn't take it round with me or anything until after the third'.

1578 'Okay, that's in respect of phone enquiries'.
 Reply 'Mmm mmm okay'.

1578 'We now move on to general questions from the PJ. Did you leave Praia Da Luz on the night Madeleine went missing''
 Reply 'No'.

00.29.37 1578 'So you didn't go out of Praia''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'You didn't meet anyone''
 Reply 'Other than'.

1578 'Out of Praia, only the people that we've discussed''
 Reply 'Yeah, no didn't meet anyone else'.

1578 'Did you use any means of transportation''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Did you at any time leave the doors open in your Ocean Club apartment''
 Reply 'On that night, or do you mean''

1578 'It says at any time, so I suppose we'd better cover the week'.
 Reply 'Erm, yeah I mean, well not open, we left the patio door unlocked occasionally if we were just popping out to the pool and nipping out the back doors, erm the patio doors was the easiest way if we were all going out and there was, there was nothing really in the apartment to steal, erm but otherwise they were locked all the time'.

1578 'Did you at any time leave the windows open in your Ocean Club apartment''
 Reply 'No, erm I mean the bedroom windows and shutters were down, the shutters were down the whole time and the windows were shut, I mean we didn't even open the shutters in the bedroom and then really the only other window to open was the patio doors, which you know were obviously open when we were in the apartment, erm you know cos we sat outside on the balcony quite a lot'.

1578 'Okay. In the days before Madeleine went missing, did you at any time check on your children, if so, how often''
 Reply 'Erm yes I mean when we were at dinner, that was what we did in the evenings was have dinner and check on the children, well I mean we only, until the Thursday, we only checked on her own children, so Matt and I just checked on Grace and that would of you know, every sort of twenty to thirty minutes, erm while we were having dinner'.

1578 'On the Thursday night''
 Reply 'No on, on, on the other nights'.

1578 'On the other nights sorry'.
 Reply 'And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that's the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children, erm whereas on the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt when and checked on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, erm you know and that hadn't happened before'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'But the only time we needed to check was you know when we were having dinner cos that, that was the only time that you know Grace was left by herself, when she's having her lunch time naps you know, we just sat on the balcony, we didn't check, you know we didn't check then that she was in the room, I mean you know, erm and otherwise she was in cr'he or we was at erm'.

1578 'Okay. We have now a list of questions from Gerry and Kate, some of these are possibly duplicated'.
 Reply 'Yeah okay. Is that all the questions from the Portuguese although (inaudible)''

1578 'For the moment'.
 Reply 'Right'.

1578 'How long have you known Gerald and Kate and what sort of relationship is there between you and the couple''
 Reply 'Erm I first met them at Dave and Fiona's wedding in Italy in September, two thousand and three and we shared an apartment there, erm for sort of the three or four days that we were there for the wedding, erm and then erm I mean Matt knew Gerald, er knew Gerry already from work, erm but I mean, you know we weren't sort of really close friends with them and saw them by ourselves, we'd only really see them if Dave and Fiona were around, er but you know parties and that sort of thing, erm and then the next sort of significant time that I remember seeing them was at Dave's fortieth, erm and, and then basically the holiday'.
 1578 'Have you ever been with Gerald and Kate at their home with their children''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Have you spent holidays with them at any other time, if yes can you describe the way they took care of their children in the evening/at night''
 Reply 'No we hadn't been on holiday with them before, apart you know, apart from Portugal last year, that was the first time we've been on holiday with Gerry and Kate'.

1578 'I'm sorry, I thought you said you said you shared an apartment with them in Italy''
 Reply 'Oh well okay yeah, well that was, I mean Madeleine was about three months, erm and erm, I mean one, one night it was you know, well one day it was the wedding and then the dinner in the evening and I think, I mean Madeleine was with Kate all the time, I mean she was breast feeding, erm the other nights, I don't remember but I mean we ate in the apartment and erm, yeah basically ate in the apartment and then sort of went to bed really so, Madeleine would either have been you know, up with us, erm or as, or asleep up in the bedroom'.

1578 'How often did you used to meet Gerry and Kate during the holidays from the twenty eighth of April to the third of May''
 Reply 'We saw them every day, erm, I mean Sean and Amelie were in the same cr'he as Grace, so we saw them in the mornings, you know either being dropped off or collected at midday, erm and then you know we'd either sit by the pool together, or we'd play tennis together, Matt and I and Gerry and Kate, one of the days, I don't, maybe the Tuesday, erm'.

00.38.02 1578 'That was Monday and Tuesday''
 Reply 'Well may, maybe the Tuesday, I'm not sure which, it was Monday or Tuesday I think, I think it was fairly early the beginning of the week, erm Matt and Kate went running one afternoon, erm I mean we saw them every day and obviously at dinner every night as well, erm well tea, when the children had tea everyday at quarter to five at the bit by the Tapas Bar, erm you know they were there with their children, erm so we saw them everyday you know, a few times a day really'.

1578 'How often did you used to see their children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie''
 Reply 'Erm well we saw all the children everyday as well, Sean and Amelie we saw more than Madeleine because they were in cr'he with Grace, erm and Madeleine was in cr'he and it was kind of off, off site, it was at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and, and then we'd, we'd always see them at tea time, we'd all have tea together and then after tea we always just went to the sort of recreation area by the tennis courts and the kids would play on the swings and the slides and you know, you'd just sort of chase them around and play games and stuff, so I mean everyday'.

1578 'Okay. Did you feel at any time that there was a reason to be concerned about the children''
 Reply 'No, absolutely not, I mean they were really happy children, they all played together really well, well all, all eight of the children, erm and you know Gerry and Kate are great parents, they're great with their kids, erm'.

1578 'I think you've already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine''
 Reply 'Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May'.

00.41.13 1578 'At the tennis courts''
 Reply 'Yes at the tennis courts'.

1578 'Any particular court''
 Reply 'Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it's the one on the left I think'.

1578 'Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts''
 Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there'.

1578 Okay'.
 Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were'.

1578 'What's that one there and what is that''
 Reply 'Erm that's the, I think that's probably, well the outside bit of the, of the cr'he overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that's that, that's not quite sort of accurate I don't think that, that diagram, the cr'he was here and there's an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there'.

1578 'Okay. When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third''
 Reply 'Erm well I saw Kate, I chatted to Kate by the pool, erm in the morning'.

1578 'What time was that''
 Reply 'That would have been from sort of, you know half nine, ten o'clock onwards, we were chatting when Madeleine arrived for the tennis lesson with the rest of the children from her group, erm I think that was probably about ten thirty, erm and Gerry was there then as well, I think he'd been having a lesson on the tennis courts I think, he was having group lessons, so I think he might have been having his lesson sort of up until then, erm so they were both there then and then erm Matt and I had our tennis lesson and then Jane and I, when Jane and I were having a hit on the court when, in the afternoon, so about half two, three o'clock when Grace was having her sleep and Evie was asleep, erm Gerry and Kate were watching us, so we saw them then and then we saw Kate running on the beach later on that day, about quarter to five, five o'clock'.

00.44.16 1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Erm and then Gerry we saw on the tennis court later on in the evening when the boys came up to play tennis for that social session and that was at about you know, seven'.

1578 'About seven''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'Until''
 Reply 'Until about twenty past seven when he went back to help Kate put the children to bed, erm and then at the table then at sort of twenty to nine (inaudible) a bit then, oh well Matt and I saw them walking down to the table, sort of eight thirty eight or something like that and then we got down to the table at just after about twenty to nine'.

1578 'And then obviously at the table''
 Reply 'Yes, erm we were all there until oh erm, well we were actually all sitting at the table at about erm nine, five past nine and then that's when Gerry went off and did his check, think he was probably away about five minutes after he'd talked to Jez as well on the way back and then erm, and then Kate left at sort of about ten, just before ten, went up and came back, well she was probably away about five minutes, maybe slightly longer, I think she looked round the apartment, just to make sure Madeleine hadn't wandered into one of the other rooms, erm and then she was back and then, and then we all headed off then, erm anyway then they were together I think for pretty much most of the rest of the night, you know they were both you know, pretty much hysterical and screaming and shouting and erm, then I really kept out of the way just sort of checking on Grace and talking to Jane, erm remember I was sort of avoiding being there really, just, you know it was just awful'.

1578 'Yes, but you briefly checked the stairwells with''
 Reply With Gerry yes'.

00.47.32 1578 'Gerry'.
 Reply 'Mmm yeah'.

1578 'Yes'.
 Reply 'Yeah and'.

1578 'What time did you arrive at the Tapas Restaurant on May the third''
 Reply 'Erm twenty to nine'.

1578 'Who was there already''
 Reply 'Gerry and Kate and Jane and they were talking to a couple on another table'.

1578 'Do you know who that couple was''
 Reply 'Was Steve, I can't remember what his wife was called, we played tennis with them'.

1578 'What were Kate and Gerry doing by the time you arrived''
 Reply 'Well they were kind of finishing up their conversation really with Steve and his wife, so I think we sat down and they sat erm sort of, sort of a few seconds later or thirty seconds later'.

1578 'Did you speak to Kate and Gerry''
 Reply 'Yes, erm can't, I mean I do remember Kate saying that she hoped the children were okay because they'd said that last night they'd been crying and erm they kind of said her, 'Mummy, where were you', so she sort of hoped, she hoped they were alright, erm and then it was just general chit chat really, think we talk, on the Friday there was supposed to be a tennis tournament and I think we were sort of trying to get teams together or couples together or something and you I think we chatted a bit about that, I think we were one man short, cos I think Matt didn't really want to play or something, erm'.

1578 'That was going to be''
 Reply 'That was going to be on the Friday'.

00.50.33 1578 'Following day'.
 Reply 'Erm so I think we probably talked about that a bit and otherwise you know, just general, probably that the weather had been a bit better that day and (inaudible) remember when the rest of us were there, we talked about Matt falling off the boat and Russell rescuing him and you know, it was actually quite a dramatic story and we were like well you know, that will be the talk of the holiday, the story of the holiday, erm so yeah that was kind of discussed at length cos Russell felt quite a hero and er, er I think he done quite well actually to get back and rescue Matt, erm and I don't know what else we talked about, just, no I mean nothing specific really just general chit chat'.

1578 'What was their behaviour like''
 Reply 'Well you know the same as it had been every other night, erm you know just happy, jolly, you know people who were having a nice holiday, I mean there's absolutely no way that they'd, I mean you know, they didn't do anything to Madeleine and there's just no way that they could have done and you know, if, even if they had, there's just no way that somebody could come and sit at the table and just behave normally'.

1578 'Who left the table during the meal and why''
 Reply 'Well Matt left first of all to go back and chivvy Dave and Fi and Diane along, cos they hadn't arrived by about five to nine, so he left and he said he'd just check on the rooms while, would just listen outside the doors while, you know while he was on his way back, erm he passed Dave and Fi and Diane as he was going, so they arrived at the table, erm Matt, Matt carried on and just listened outside the windows, erm he came back, erm about five minutes later, Gerry went to check and actually go in and look at Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, cos they'd only been at the table I suppose then for about twenty five minutes and Matt had only gone to listen at the windows, not to actually go in the rooms, erm then he came back having talked to Gerry on the way back, erm and while Gerry was still away, Jane went to check on Ella and Evie, erm and then Gerry got back and then Jane got back and then about fifteen minutes later, sort of about nine twenty five, nine thirty Matt and Russell went off to check on Grace and Ella and Evie and Kate got up to say that she was gonna go and check as well, then Matt and Russell volunteered to check on the twins and Madeleine instead of her going, erm so they went, Matt came back, erm and Russell had stayed behind cos Evie had been sick and so he stayed with her and then we ate our food and then Jane went to take over from Russell, that was so he could come and eat something, erm and that was probably at about twenty to ten, I don't, not sure about that really but erm, yeah it was about twenty to ten probably, quarter to ten maybe, erm and they cooked fresh and then so Russell came back, erm and they cooked him a fresh meal and as he was, as he was eating that, Kate said she'd go and check and that would have been about five to ten, ten o'clock, so she went off and then came back, sort of five, ten, be about five past ten maybe and came back saying Madeleine's gone and then we all got up from the table and ran up to the apartment. Diane stayed at the table actually, erm I think actually I'd taken my denim jacket off cos I remember her bringing that up to me later on, erm but yeah Diane stayed at the table and, and then you know, the rest, the rest kind of, well we all went up and then (inaudible)'.

00.56.42 1578 'When, when Matthew first went to chivvy up the PAYNE's'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'What, what did he actually tell you that he was going to do in respect of checking on the children''
 Reply 'He just said he'd have a listen outside the windows, erm cos I mean we'd only left our room about fifteen minutes ago, fifteen minutes before that, erm and you know because the, Madeleine and the twins were basically in the room next to Grace, erm he just said he'd put his ear to that window as well, erm and I can't remember whether he said he'd check on Ella and Evie as well, I have a feeling that he didn't because Russell had you know more or less only just sat down, erm I certainly remember him saying he'd just listen outside our window and Gerry and Kate's, erm when he came back, he might have said that he'd listened outside Ella and Evie's as well but I'm not sure about that, but he came back and said he listen, you know it was all quiet from the outside of our windows and the outside of Gerry and Kate's'.
 00.58.01 1578 'A few moments ago on the, on the first account that you've just given me'.
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'You said that he told you he was going to listen outside the doors'.
 Reply 'Well the windows sorry, well he, yeah I mean mmm'.

1578 'I just wanted to clarify what he actually said to you'.
 Reply 'Erm, I can't remember what, I mean he said he'd just listen outside, erm I don't know whether he said doors or windows, but when he came back he said he'd listened outside the windows, I mean, erm I mean you wouldn't listen outside the front doors and he could only listen outside the bedroom doors by going inside, so I mean, but I, I don't know what he said exactly when he was going, but the assumption was I think that he'd listen outside the windows and when he came back, he'd listened outside the windows'.

1578 'He actually mentioned windows when he came back''
 Reply 'Yeah I think he must have done'.

1578 'Because again you've just said, he said everything was all quiet''
 Reply 'Yeah I mean, erm yeah I think he you know, everything was quiet, he'd just kind of put his ear to the shutters and'.

1578 'I'm not, I'm not trying to'.
 Reply 'No I know, I'm just, no, no, no I'm just erm'.
 1578 'Put you on the spot Rachael, I'm just trying to clarify what you think he actually said to you at the time''
 Reply 'I know, erm well I don't remember whether he said everything's okay, it's all quiet, or whether he said you know, I've listened, I've listened outside the windows and it was all quiet, erm I think when he left the table he must have said that he was gonna listen outside the windows and then when he came back, he was like yeah everything's okay, it's all, it's all quiet, but I mean you know it's nearly a year on so I can't, I can't remember specifically, I don't know what, I can't remember whether, I mean that might be in my statement that I gave in Portugal'.
 01.00.58 1578 'Again I think we've covered this, did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal''
 Reply 'Yes at sort of five past nine'.

1578 'And well what time did you see him leave the table''
 Reply 'It was about five past nine I think'.

1578 'How long was he absent for''
 Reply 'I don't know, it would have only been about five minutes, seven minutes maybe, I mean I don't know but'.

1578 'And what did he say when he came back''
 Reply 'Erm that he'd met Jez on the pavement, on the road and they'd had a chat about the tennis tournament'.
 1578 'Who did he say that to''
 Reply 'I think just generally to the table'.

1578 'And was he behaving or acting different when he returned''
 Reply 'No was just the same cheery self'.

1578 'Did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal''
 Reply 'Yes at, not that long after Gerry had got back, oh no, no, no Gerry hadn't got back, not that, not that long after Gerry had gone, erm so'.

1578 'What time''
 Reply 'I mean maybe about ten past nine'.

1578 'About how long was she absent for''
 Reply 'About five minutes, bit less maybe'.

01.03.40 1578 'Was she showing any different behaviour or attitude when she returned''
 Reply 'No, that's no, same as normal'.

1578 'Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal''
 Reply 'Yeah he and Russell left together, well apart, well Matt left by himself at about five to nine when he went to see where Diane, Dave and Fi were and then he left again with Russell about twenty five past nine, half past nine'.

1578 'About how long was he absent for''
 Reply 'Erm the first time you know less than five minutes and then the next time probably about five minutes, maybe about six minutes'.

1578 'What did Matthew say when he came back''
 Reply 'Erm when he came back the first time he said that everything was quiet, when he came back the second time after he'd been into Grace and then into the twins and Madeleine, erm he just said to Kate as he got back, you know all quiet, everything's okay, maybe it was just all quiet'.

1578 'Did you hear him say that to Kate, or is that what Kate told you''
 Reply 'Erm no I think, I mean I remember him saying you know it was all okay, all quiet'.

1578 'And again was he behaving or acting differently when he returned''
 Reply 'No, same as normal'.

1578 'Did you see Russell leaving the table during the meal''
 Reply 'Yeah he left with Matt at twenty five past nine, nine thirty'.

1578 'About how long was he absent for''
 Reply 'Erm it probably was about fifteen to twenty minutes, cos Evie had been sick and he had to change the sheets on the cot and then the pyjamas all that sort of thing and Jane had to eat her dinner before she went up to change places with him'.

1578 'And what did Russell say when he came back''
 Reply 'Erm whatever it, I think basically he just said that Evie had been sick and erm, don't remember what else, where's his food or something like that I expect, cos we'd all eaten ours or were finishing off ours'.

01.07.41 1578 'Was he behaving or reacting differently''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'When he returned'.
 Reply 'The same as normal'.

1578 'Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal''
 Reply 'Just at five to ten, ten o'clock'.

1578 'About how long was she absent''
 Reply 'About five minutes, slightly longer, you know, five to seven minutes maybe'.

1578 'And what did Kate say when she got back''
 Reply 'Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone, she repeated it twice, well she kept, I mean she didn't actually get back to the table, she kind of was erm about three quarters of the way down the path that came from the Reception towards the Tapas and she shouted, 'Gerry, Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone' and then we all got up and ran after her and back up to their apartment'.

1578 'How did she look''
 Reply 'Distressed, upset, she was crying'.

1578 'What was her behaviour like''
 Reply 'Well I mean she was really upset, she was erm you know, shouting, 'Madeleine's gone' and then as we're running up the road, you know just carried on repeating that, erm and crying, sort of you know, kind of verging on the hysterical really'.

1578 'Were you shocked yourself by what she said''
 Reply 'Yeah, I mean my, you know, my initial reaction was that you know Madeleine must have got out of bed and you know possibly wandered into the garden or something like that, erm but then when, when Kate said that the shutters were up and the window was open, erm I mean we were shocked anyway that she'd gone, but then when the shutters were up and the windows were open and we knew that, that was even more disturbing, erm and it was just a really horrible feeling, erm you know the immediate thought was that somebody had taken her, erm and then you know, I mean as we left the table and went and was sort of following Kate, erm the sort of anxiety was growing about you know Grace and was she okay and was she there, erm so it was kind of a quick stop at the bottom of the steps of their apartment and then carrying on to make sure that Grace is alright, erm you know and she was, erm and then it was just sort of back to and then, and you can't describe that feeling but erm where could Madeleine be and you know who could have taken her and erm and just sort of erm, that that and the anxiety and that feeling sort of helplessness and you know what we're gonna do and you know, let's start looking, it was that sort of, you know just general sort of you know panic and erm and you know Gerry and Kate were you know pretty hysterical and sort of inconsolable and screaming and shouting and erm and it was just a really awful sort of situation, erm and you know and it's not really changed'.

01.12.35 1578 'What did you do''
 Reply 'Erm well followed Kate back to their apartment, we just sort of stood at the bottom of the steps and that you know, I didn't really want to go in and erm and then went round to check on Grace with Matt, erm and then once you know we'd seen her and she was still asleep, erm Matt went off and I went to Russell and Jane's apartment and told Jane what had happened and then Jane told me that she'd seen somebody carrying a child away'.

1578 'Did she actually tell you that inside her apartment, or when you were outside in the courtyard''
 Reply 'No it was sort of outside in that courtyard, just sort of outside her door though'.

1578 'Did you go into the McCANN's apartment''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Did you go into the bedroom where the children were asleep''
 Reply 'Er no'.

01.14.39 1578 'Say if that's a no then you can't describe what you saw''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'Did you see the twins''
 Reply 'No'.

1578 'And again did you notice anything unusual about them''
 Reply 'No I didn't see them'.

1578 'What did you do next, did you take part in the subsequent searches''
 Reply 'I mean only just searching the steps and the other floors with Gerry'.

1578 'Just yourself and Gerry''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'And that's the only search you did''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react''
 Reply 'She was really upset, she was hysterical, really distressed, crying and screaming, there's no way she could have acted that, or anyone could have in fact, I don't think, not even an actress'.

1578 'On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Gerry react''
 Reply 'Very similar to Kate, it was you know screaming, shouting, erm crying, just you know, he was very much a, you know a father whose child had disappeared, as Kate was a mother whose child had disappeared or wouldn't you know'.

1578 'What do you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing''
 Reply 'I think it was a very erm you know natural reaction, I can't image that anyone else would act differently in that sort of situation and that you know, I don't think it's something that you could put on either'.

01.17.53 1578 'What did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am the following day, who did you see''
 Reply 'Erm well most of the time I spent talking to Jane and sort of checking on Grace, erm and saw, I remember the nannies coming up to talk to us, some of the Mark WARNER nannies and they'd been searching and looking round the village and sort of you know, rallying friends and people that they knew, erm I mean we were waiting for the Police for a lot of that time cos they didn't turn up for ages, erm and, and then when the GNR did arrive, erm you know, they came to say hello and erm Sylvia was there with them and so was Robert MURAT, erm there were other people sort of milling around in the background but Sylvia introduced herself and so did Robert MURAT, erm I mean he just introduced himself to me as Robert and we shook hands, erm and then sort of remember talking to somebody from I think, think (inaudible) one of the apartments on the floor above, sort of an older guy, kind of said oh he went missing when he was a child for about ten days and he, and he, you know he came back again sort of thing, well he was, I can't remember whether he said he was taken or, it wasn't that he'd run away, I mean maybe he sort of too young to remember or something but he said that he was missing and he'd reappeared, erm and yeah just and then erm after the Police arrived, erm I mean we were just you know talking about what we should do and then I thought of ringing James LANDALE and you know seeing if we could get it on the news, erm and made those phone calls, erm and then the PJ arrived, I don't know what time that was though, probably about two-ish or something, erm and, and then I think we went to bed about three, maybe might have been a bit later but we did think we ought to go and get some sleep, erm cos there wasn't really much that we could do, erm and then that morning, erm I mean Grace was always up sort of about six, half six, erm and when we got up you know everything was quiet outside, they didn't seem you know the Police didn't seem to be around or, there didn't seem to be any activity, erm Matt took Grace up for breakfast to the Millennium, erm and they came back, I remember having, sort of being on the phone a little bit to the BBC I think that morning, erm and then sort of various phone calls, I talked to John CORNER who's a friend of Gerry and Kate's, erm cos the BBC wanted a picture of Madeleine, erm and he had some photos that he was going to be able to send them, erm and then and I think maybe about ten-ish, well we would have taken Grace to cr'he I think for about nine half nine I think did we that day, I think we took her, erm then I think about ten, half ten Gerry, Kate, Matt and Jane and maybe Dave as well, erm went to Portim' to the Police Station to start doing interviews'.

01.23.20 1578 'The next question is, who did you talk to, so was there anyone else that you've not covered''
 Reply 'I don't think so no'.

1578 'The older guy'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'From the apartments upstairs said that he had been'.
 Reply 'He had been'.

1578 'Or he had disappeared or'.
 Reply 'Yes when he was a child, erm'.

1578 'Do you know which apartment he was in''
 Reply 'No, erm'.

1578 'Or his name or description''
 Reply 'No, erm he had grey hair, sort of slim-ish guy, erm he was with a woman you know, his wife I presumed, erm'.

1578 'What nationality was he''
 Reply 'He was English, British, erm you know he must have been in his sixties, erm'.

01.24.39 1578 'Do you know which apartment he was in''
 Reply 'No I don't'.

1578 'Where did you speak with him''
 Reply 'Because we were'.

1578 'Sorry, where did you speak''
 Reply 'Oh where, just in that courtyard-y bit, kind of at the bottom of the steps, just outside Russell and Jane's apartment really, they were going up, back up to their apartment, erm and he knew what had been going on, or you know I think he'd been out in the village or and well he knew that there was a child missing and he said, you know, don't worry it will be alright or something like that, or you know, I went missing when I was little and I came back, erm but no I don't know what his name is or which apartment he was in'.

1578 'And you mentioned another guy, John CORNER''
 Reply 'Yes, he's a friend of Gerry and Kate's who was in England, I spoke to him on the phone, on Kate's phone actually'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'That was the next morning, sort of you know, eight o'clock in the morning, that sort of time'.

1578 'When did you leave Portugal''
 Reply 'On the erm, erm the Thursday the erm seventeenth of May, it was a Thursday, I think it was the seventeenth'.

1578 'And who was that with''
 Reply 'Erm Russell and Jane, Ella and Evie, Matt, Grace, me and erm, no just us'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Craig from Mark WARNER was all, sort of also travelled with us, which cos he was going back to the UK as well'.

01.27.00 1578 'So during that two week period then after Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry''
 Reply 'Erm, I mean not, not that often, erm I mean I think, mmm, oh we didn't kind of meet up specifically to chat or talk about things or see what was happening, erm I mean we just seen them sometimes at the cr'he when they collected Sean and Amelie, although quite a lot of the time Sandy who's Gerry's brother in law and Trish who's Gerry's sister erm collected the twins, erm I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi's apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us you know what was happening and what was being done and erm that would probably have been either Sunday or the Monday, something like that but I mean I can't be certain about days, erm and we saw them at church, when we went to church, I think the first time we went to church was on the Saturday and then we went on the Sunday, cos it was like a Mothering Sunday thing on Sunday, we went then, erm and then I think on the Thursday after, the following Thursday the tenth, there was some sort of vigil in the church and then we went to church again on the Sunday the thirteenth and on the Saturday the twelfth, which was Madeleine's birthday, erm we went to a villa near the Resort, near, on a Resort and sort of had a barbecue and sort of had a quiet day, we sort of, cos it was Madeleine's birthday'.

1578 'Do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child''
 Reply 'Mmm yes absolutely, I mean you know I've never met any other parents who've lost a child but I would assume that that's how people would behave, I mean you know Kate cried a lot and erm, well I can't imagine how people would behave differently, you know, I don't think anyone could just sort of, yes alright okay this is you know, she's disappeared but we're just gonna carry on as normal, well you just couldn't do that I don't think, don't think anyone could, so I think they, you know the way they behaved was entirely natural'.
 01.31.05 1578 'During the time you were on holiday, did you notice any situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person''
 Reply 'No I mean, no I mean nobody that there was you know not another family that were on holiday but I don't specifically remember them talking to other couples that, or you know families that were on holiday aside from Steve and his wife on the night of the third and then erm, erm I mean when the children were playing in their recreation area, but I don't specifically remember them talking to anyone but you know we'd all kind of say hello to other parents, or you know ask what they'd been doing that day, that sort of thing, but you know, nobody that was like a stranger, nobody that didn't have kids really, erm because everyone in that sort of, in the compound where the recreation area was and where the swimming pool was, were Mark WARNER guests, holiday guests and I think everyone had children'.

1578 'Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the holiday period''
 Reply 'During the whole time that we were there, or just, or up to the third of May or, I mean I never saw them in a car the whole time, I mean there was no car'.

1578 'Answers the question then'.
 Reply 'Yeah, other than you know sort of going to the Police Station and that sort of thing, but that would have been driven by Police'.

1578 'Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''
 Reply 'Erm what do you mean, in just sort of anything as well''

1578 'I guess do you have any other information that would assist the enquiry''
 Reply 'Mmm I mean nothing, you know it was just a really quiet Resort, there was nobody about you know before, I mean even after, until the media arrived, the place was dead really, erm I mean, kind of feel that you know, you would have noticed, you know ought to have noticed if there were strangers around or sort of people who looked slightly odd or were hanging around too much, but then again you know when you, kind of eyes that tend to be on the ground because you know, everyone's got small children, you tend not to be looking up that much, so erm no but it was just so quiet that anyone really without children would you know, would stand out, erm you know but there were places where people could hide you know, there were, there cer, there were certainly areas you know near that car park and those apartments off, opposite where there are bushes, where somebody could hide and be watching us, erm you know and our routine was so set, you know every night we had dinner at eight thirty in the Tapas, erm and it wouldn't have been hard to find that out, erm or to just you know, watch every night and see what we did, erm so but I mean you know, there was, you just didn't see anything unusual, erm and you know the only thing that really sort of bugs me is that you know Robert MURAT was there that night and for some reason he said he's not but you know, when he was arrested, or taken in for questioning, erm I mean had a really uneasy feeling about him on the night when I met him and I said this to the Portuguese, I said it in my, it's erm, I did three statements and the third one that I did was specifically about seeing MURAT on the night, erm and when I met him on the third of May and we shook hands, erm and he said he wanted to help, you know he was one of those people that I just kind of took an instant dislike to almost, just felt really uneasy about him and erm he just came, he was just sort of very over familiar and kind of wanting to be in the thick of things, and I just thought that was slightly odd behaviour, erm and you know I, you know didn't think sort of anything of it really at the time, just some you know, a bit odd, erm and then we saw him again, I don't know which day it was, it must have be, it wasn't, it was either, I think it might have been the Saturday erm I was coming back from the Supermarket with Russell, I think maybe with Fiona, don't know whether it was Fi but Russell was definitely there and we saw him again and he just kind of said, 'hello and how's things going' and then erm he was in the church on the Sunday I think, the first Sunday after Madeleine disappeared, erm and I just had this funny feeling about him and because when Jane had seen this man carrying the child, when we'd been discuss, you know when she told me that she'd seen somebody carrying a child, she said at the time she thought it was odd but you know, kind of as you're wandering about every day, you see lots of things that are odd but you know, you don't really sort of act upon it, erm so just cos I thought that MURAT you know just gave me a funny feeling, I thought I'd just tell everyone but I just thought you know, he was a bit strange or he just made me feel uneasy and I was literally about to do that and I remember I went for a run along the beach and came back, and this is on Monday the erm the fourteenth, the day that he was arrested or whatever, erm as I went for a run, came back, thought I'll just, you know had a shower and stuff and thought that I'd go and tell everyone that you know I just didn't like him and had this uneasy feeling about him and I switched on the TV and he was there you know, being taken off to the Police Station, which you know, made me feel quite sick, it was a horrible feeling, erm anyway that was kind of the end of that, erm and it was only, and then it was, and then the next day erm the only reason that sort of me and Russell and Fiona ended up doing statements about seeing Robert MURAT on the night, was that Jane was talking to Bob SMALL the next day about doing this sort of, I think it was connected to that surveillance thing she'd done, erm I think it was on the Sunday, erm and she'd mentioned to him that you know, obviously when I'd seen MURAT on the TV, I'd said oh you know, he was there on the night and you know we spoke, erm it was only cos Jane mentioned that to Bob SMALL that he ended up sort of calling back later on and saying actually you know, you'd better talk to the Portuguese about that, erm you know at that time, we didn't know that he was, I mean I didn't know that he was saying he wasn't there on the night, that only came out I think, I don't know even if I knew about that before I left Portugal, erm, erm so then you know, and then we, Russell, Fiona and I went back to Portugal to do that sort of sitting in the room with him, to see whether he'd kind of break under the pressure or whatever, erm I mean he didn't, you know he was just telling lies about being there on the night and I, you know nobody, oh I don't know, I presume that has been followed up but it just seems quite significant, I don't know why it hasn't been posted in the media, it doesn't seem to have been pursued, which kind of makes you think that the Police haven't really done much about it, erm you know they've kind of gone after Gerry and Kate and that's been all over the papers and erm you know, there's this man who was there on the night, who's telling, you know, who's lying about it and nothing really about that's come out, erm you know in the Press we were made out to sort of be the bullies in the, that stand off with him you know it was all very controlled and you know, just yes he was there and he was saying he wasn't you know, there was no shouting and screaming or anything like that which the Press made out to be, erm but you know he was there and the Police were there with him on the night as well, you know the GNR, I think he was translating, and yet you know he's saying that he wasn't there and everyone seems to believe that, or that's you know, that's my impression anyway'.

1578 'Okay. We shall finish this interview at this point'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'And I'll go and speak with colleagues'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

1578 'There's, there is one other issue that I need to ask you about, hopefully it won't take too long'.
 Reply 'Okay'.

01.41.20 1578 'Alright. So the time now is three twenty eight pm and this interview is ceasing'.




Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters part III/III



00.00.04 1578 'Okay, the time is four twelve pm and that's on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight.

We're at the Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters in an interview room. I'm Detective Constable 1578 Andrew GIERC from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you give me your full name and date of birth please''
 Reply 'Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY, eleventh of the eleventh, seventy'.

1578 'Thank you. This is the third interview of today Rachael, you're here voluntarily as a significant witness, assisting the Portuguese Authorities in the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN, which is as you know was on the evening of Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven. At the end of the last interview, you indicated that you would like to talk about the conversation Jane had with you in respect of her sighting'.
 Reply 'Mmm erm'.

1578 'Would you like to run through that with us please, tell us precisely, as accurately as possible what Jane told you, firstly when she told you''
 Reply 'Mmm mmm'.

1578 'Where you were when she told you and then run through as accurately as possible the conversation''
 Reply 'Okay, erm basically after Matt and I had checked on Grace, erm Matt went off to search and I went across to Jane's apartment cos she was there with Evie, erm and just told her that Madeleine had gone missing, erm and I must have known at that point that the window was open and the shutter was up, erm cos basically when I told her that and this was in the courtyard, the sort of, well outside Jane's apartment in that sort of courtyard-y area between our two apartments, erm Jane looked sort of quite horrified and then said that when she'd walked up to check on Ella and Evie at sort of ten past nine, erm when she'd passed Gerry and Jez who were talking in the street, she'd seen a man carrying a child walking across the top of the road and she said you know at the time, she thought it was a bit odd, erm but sort of didn't, didn't really think twice about it because you know the, it was the sort of place where parents carry children around at night because they might have had them in the cr'he, erm while they went off to have dinner and then we'd you know pick up the kids and they could well be asleep and be carrying them home to bed, so she said she did think it was a bit odd but you know, obviously with hindsight, of course she'd kind of gone after them but erm, erm and she, so she told me that and we just, you know, our conversation, we were just batting back and forth well you know, surely it couldn't have been Madeleine, cos Jane said she'd past Gerry and Jez in the street as she was walking up, so she'd literally gone passed Gerry and this man was walking across the top of the road, erm so it was like, well how could it be Madeleine because you know, Gerry would have just you know left the apartment a couple of minutes ago after checking on them, erm and, and then, so but we came to the same conclusion that it was significant and that she'd have to tell, you know, she would tell the Police when they arrived, erm and I think I asked her what he was wear, what this person was wearing, erm and she said he had like a dark jacket on, sort of like a windcheater type thing, erm and sort of brownish coloured trousers, erm and shoes, I mean they weren't trainers and they weren't sort of proper shoes, you know but it, they were sort of something, I don't know, like I don't know, Hush Puppies, that type of thing, erm and she said that his hair was sort of fairly long, long at the back, erm not long as in, as in length but in sort of volume and we talked about, you know she said it, you know he looked sort of Mediterranean, he, or Portuguese just because you know the Europeans tend to wear their hair sort of you know, longer at the back, whereas you know most British men have it all sort of cut in and short. So she said he, no he didn't really, that's why she, I think you know, she thought it was a bit odd because he didn't really look like a holidaymaker, erm cos most of the people wandering about, erm you know were all wearing shorts or, you could kind of tell they were Brits on holiday, erm so he didn't really fit that mould and erm, she'd thought, the other thing that had kind of made her suspicious I suppose, was that the child you know wasn't covered with a blanket or anything like that, was just in pyjamas, you know with bare legs and feet hanging down, erm so the child was being carried like that, you know the sort of head there and body and legs hanging down, erm and you know it was cold at night, I mean you know we all had lots of layers on, erm so she thought that was a bit odd you know, erm that the child just had pyjamas on and nothing else, erm and the person carrying her had a, oh you know had a jacket and, and long trousers, erm, erm so we sort of ummed and arred about that and you know decided that well you know, it just seemed too much of a coincidence that you know it couldn't be insignificant, erm so you know Jane said she'd tell the Police as soon as they arrived, which she did, erm and erm she didn't describe the pyjamas to me then, erm it was only really, I think it was the next day or perhaps even the day after that, that Jane, Fiona and I had a conversation about the pyjamas that the child was wearing, erm and Jane had said that they were sort of white with sort of pink flowers or something on and they had a bit of a, like a trim around the bottom, erm and Fiona said she'd asked Kate erm about the pyjamas, you know, what sort of pyjamas Madeleine was wearing, erm and sort of later that day I think you know, Fi came back and said basically Jane had described the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing, so you know, that absolutely convinced us that this person walking away was carrying Madeleine, erm you know Jane, I mean none of us knew, I mean I suppose I, I might have known what bed clothes, erm what pyjamas Evie and Ella wore but that was only cos quite often they came to read stories in our apartment, or you know if Grace went there, but otherwise you know, we didn't ever seen any of the other children at bed time, erm you know, I know Jane hadn't seen the twins or Madeleine at bed time, so she would have no idea what pyjamas, or you know, or what Madeleine wore to bed, whether they were pyjamas or a nightie whatever, so erm, so it was you know sort of like the two, I think it must have been on the Saturday, erm that the pyjamas, Jane described the pyjamas to Fiona and Fiona found out from Kate, erm what Madeleine's pyjamas were like and they were the same as the ones that Jane had described'.

 00.08.19 1578 'But she didn't describe the pyjamas to yourself on the evening''
 Reply 'On the night no, we just talked about the man and what he was wearing, erm and the fact that he was carrying a child that was just in pyjamas, you know with no blanket'.

1578 'What time did you have the conversation with Jane on the, on the evening''
 Reply 'On the night, erm I mean it was probably about ten fifteen, twenty past ten, something like that (inaudible)'.

1578 'And where were you''
 Reply 'Erm just outside Jane's apartment in that sort of courtyard-y area, between 5D and 5B'.

1578 'Was there anyone else present''
 Reply 'No there was just Jane and I'.

1578 'Do you know if she had told anyone else about that sighting prior to telling you''
 Reply 'No she wouldn't have done because I was, you know I were literally, I went to tell her that Madeleine was missing, she didn't know up until that point and then she'd said she, you know then that's when she told me she'd seen this man, or the person and yeah I mean she hadn't seen anyone out, you know, anyone from our group until that point, but she didn't actually know Madeleine was missing 'til I told her then'.

1578 'Okay and you mentioned earlier Rachael that at that point'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'You must have known that the shutter was up and the window was open''
 Reply 'Yes'.

00.09.38 1578 'Do you know who told you that''
 Reply 'Erm but I mean I remember kind of standing near the window with Kate and Fiona, erm so but I mean I don't remember the specifics of anyone actually saying to me that, I think it was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort of milling around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate's apartment and cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later in the night, erm you know Kate had tried to see whether you could lift the shutters from the outside, erm but which you could and they would stay up, erm so I think, I don't think anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the shutters were up, it was just erm you know kind of listening to conversations and seeing Kate and Fiona, erm sort of outside the apartment'.

1578 'Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window open''
 Reply 'Yes'.

1578 'When was that''
 Reply 'When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know standing by the shutters, by the window'.


1578 'When you say by the window, do you mean by the building line, or in the car park''
 Reply 'Erm by the building, on that path in front of the, in front of the actual window'.

1578 'And when would that have been''
 Reply 'Erm well I think it must have been just before I told Jane that, you know we, Matt checked on Grace and I mean I, I did, I thought we'll go straight to Jane and you know tell her that Madeleine was missing but if sort of Kate and Fi and you know Dave and Gerry might have come out of the apartment and sort of been standing around there and talking about this, these shutters being up and the window being open, erm and I didn't, I didn't have a conversation with anyone, I just heard them talking about it, erm so I think it was you know in that time between sort of you know five past ten and ten fifteen, erm but it wasn't somebody specifically coming up to me and saying, 'the windows were open and the shutters were up'.'

1578 'Okay. Did you want to mention something about Doctors in the group''
 Reply 'Yeah I was just going to say that, you know Kate and Gerry are both Doctors and you know there were three other medics in the group, erm four others actually sorry, four others, erm you know so if by any chance they'd accidentally done anything to Madeleine or she was ill or erm you know something wasn't quite right, I mean they wouldn't have just left her and sort of tried to cover it up as an accident or you know, they would of sort of you know, come and got Matt and Russell and Dave and Fi, erm I mean you know, not just because they are Doctors, because you know they're parents and you'd kind of go to anyone to see who could help but if you've got, you know Doctors as friends who were there as well, erm you know there were kind of six people there who if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the theories are supposed to be, erm you know, there were plenty of people there who could of you know, tried to revive a child, erm'.

00.13.16 1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'You know and Gerry, Gerry and Kate would certainly have done that, erm'.

1578 'In respect of Madeleine herself, are you able to describe her character''
 Reply 'Erm I mean she was you know, a very bubbly little girl, erm very cheery, erm very sort of caring, she was very good with er smaller children, erm you know I just remember Grace falling over and sort of Madeleine going to pick her up and help her, erm you know, sort of full of fun, lots of energy, running around, sporty, erm one game that sort of we used to play in the evenings by the recreation area was you know, somebody would pretend to be a monster and they'd all sort of say, 'chase me, chase me' and Madeleine was always kind of the one who started that off, erm sort of say, 'oh let's play monsters' and so you know it would be Matt or Dave or Russell sort of running around chasing all the kids, erm'.

578 'What about her intelligence''
 Reply 'Erm a bright little girl I think, erm I mean oh, her, I suppose I don't know her well enough to, to really comment on that but I mean, she was, you know she was sort of very together and certainly acted her age or sort of you know older than her age, she was very sort of self aware, erm'.

00.14.43 1578 'Do you know if she was aware of stranger danger for example''
 Reply 'Yeah I'm sure she would have been, I mean I don't know personally but erm you know I think'.

1578 'To your knowledge, was she the sort of little girl that would have gone with a stranger''
 Reply 'No I don't, no I don't think she would have done, no, erm no, I mean, I mean, I don't, you know I didn't know Madeleine well enough but I know Ella who was you know a couple of months younger than Madeleine and you know, I mean she would, she wouldn't go off with a stranger and you know just from sort of all our backgrounds and the way that the children are brought up, erm you know I don't think Madeleine would either'.

1578 'Okay. Finally would you be available to travel to Portugal to, to take part in a re-enactment of the incidents of Friday the third of May, two thousand and seven, there are two specific periods provisionally quoted, the twenty eighth to the twenty ninth of April or the fifteenth to the sixteenth of May this year''
 Reply 'Yeah I mean we could be available but erm you know we've expressed our reservations about going to Portugal and about the reasons for doing a re-enactment, you know in a letter to Stuart PRIOR, erm I can't really see how you know, what the purpose of it would be nearly a year down the line, erm you know there are lots, you know there are the full details about our movements that night and what happened and you know, there's the time line that we prepared when we were out there which we thought was gonna be helpful for the PJ, erm and you know obviously since then there are all our statements and I know times might be slightly out and you know, but not, I don't, can't imagine they'd be sort of materially out, erm you know to make a huge difference, erm so I don't really see one why it needs to be done at all and two why it has to be us, erm I mean you know, asking us as a group to go back and do that when it was, you know it was such a, an horrific event and certainly you know to be sitting around that table again and sort of pretending to go back and check the rooms and it would be, it would just be awful and you know, I mean much more difficult you know for Kate and, and Jane, erm you know than me anyway, erm don't see why they can't do it with actors'.

1578 'Okay'.
 Reply 'Erm and I can't really see what the material benefit to finding Madeleine would be doing that re-enactment'.

578 'Fine. Can I just ask you please, on the, the rough notes that you made'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.

1578 'On the previous interview, would you kindly write on there your next exhibit reference, which is RMJM103. Okay I think it just remains for me on behalf of the Portuguese Authorities to sincerely thank you for your time and efforts today'.
 Reply 'That's okay'.

00.18.36 1578 'Thank you. The time is four thirty one pm and this interview is ceasing'.


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