Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police
Headquarters – part I/III
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No AJG213A
Person Interviewed: Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY Number
of Pages 50
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of
Date of Interview: 09.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1023 hours
Time Concluded: 1219 hours Duration of Interview: 116 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1578 GIERC Tape Reference nos: AJG213
Other Persons Present
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00.00.16 1578 'Okay we'll start again, the time is ten twenty
three am and thats on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand
and eight. We're in an interview room at Leicestershire Police
Force Headquarters. I'm DC 1578 Andrew GIERC from the
Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you kindly introduce
yourself by giving us your full name and date of birth please''
Reply 'Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY and date of birth is the
eleventh of the eleventh, seventy'.
1578 'Thank you. Whats your home address please''
1578 'Thanks. Okay, just as an introduction, you're here
voluntarily as a significant witness to assist in the Portuguese
investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCANN,
which occurred on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and
seven in Portugal. You've been given a letter of introduction by
Detective Superintendent Stuart PRIOR, do you have any, any
issues in respect of, of that letter''
Reply 'Mmm no'.
1578 'Okay. This interviews being recorded, video recorded and
monitored by Officers next door from Leicestershire Police and
also the Portuguese Authorities'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
00.01.53 1578 'And the purpose of the video recording is to
maintain accuracy and integrity of the enquiry really'.
Reply 'Mmm yeah'.
1578 'I would ask that when you answer questions, you should
really concentrate as hard as possible'.
1578 'And take as long as you like and tell us everything'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'Please don't leave anything out, however trivial it may
appear to yourself'.
Reply 'Mmm okay'.
1578 'And if you dont understand any questions, please ask and
Ill try and explain and if you need a break at all'.
578 'Just let me know. The interview will be in a number of
phases, firstly I'd like you to recall and explain the events
leading up to the holiday, the friendship within the group'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'And who was in the group, how it was organised'.
Reply 'Mmm right'.
1578 'Secondly, we'd like you to recall the, the erm, the whole
of the holiday period in summary'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'If there was a regular regime'.
1578 'And, and that will include a detailed account of
obviously the Thursday evening'.
1578 'When Madeleine disappeared. There will then be a number
of specific questions that the Portuguese Authorities wishes to
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'And also a list of questions from Gerry and Kate'.
1578 'And then finally we'll cover any issues raised by the
1578 'So let's go into phase one then, can you describe the, the
make up of the group please and how you're all friends and''
1578 'Associated and so forth''
Reply 'Erm well Matt, Matt worked with Gerry at the Glenfield,
I dont know when it was though, I mean before, before Matt and I
were married anyway , erm so thats how, thats how he knew Gerry
and Matt lived with erm Russell and Dave, because they were all
medical students in Leicester. Erm and then obviously everyone
sort of ended up getting married to various people, I mean
Fionas a Doctor, she married Dave, Russell and Jane got
together, erm Gerry and Kate were married but I didnt know them
really until we met at Dave and Fionas wedding in Italy erm in
two thousand and erm two thousand and three, erm well it was
just, it was when a few months after Madeleine was born, so erm
thats right isn't it, two thousand and three, September, two
thousand and three was their wedding and Dave and Fi got married
in Italy and Matt and I shared a, sort of an apartment with
Gerry and Kate and Madeleine, who was about three or four months
then and you know with various other people, so thats when I
first met Gerry and Kate, erm and then erm, I mean, we didnt
really, wed see Gerry and Kate at sort of Dave and Fi's or, but
we didnt really see them you know without, you know without Dave
and Fi there really because they were sort of friends through
00.05.44 1578 'Okay'.
Reply 'Erm and then there was erm, the next time I really sort
of properly remember seeing them before we went on holiday, was
at Daves fortieth, which was last April, erm oh, last April, no,
no, erm was that last year, yeah it must have been, erm and
then, no I dont think it was last year, it must have been the
year before, year before last Daves fortieth, erm and then
basically we all as a group, except Gerry and Kate went on
holiday in September, two thousand and six erm to Greece erm and
then basically decided to do another holiday in May last year,
April, May, erm and just sort of the additions to the group then
were Gerry and Kate and the children obviously, erm is that
enough detail on how we know each other''
1578 'Whose idea was, was it to go on holiday as a group to
Reply 'Erm I think it was either Dave or Gerry I think
suggested it, erm'.
1578 'Do you know who arranged the holiday''
Reply 'Dave did erm cos we'd all, we'd all done Mark WARNER
holidays before sort of separately, that was the Portuguese
holiday was the fourth Mark WARNER holiday that Matt and I had
done and we did a couple before Grace was born and then we did
one with her, erm and then our September holiday in Greece in
two thousand and six, you know was just so good because of all
the kids and had a great time, it wasn't Mark WARNER, erm then
we decided that it would be good to go as a group again, as
again and I think Gerry just kind of said that he had holiday
and is anyone interested in going and David said, you know Dave
emailed round and erm kind of made the suggestion and then he,
he was responsible for organising it'.
Reply 'Erm so he did all the bookings and things, yeah cos
everything came to their house and then Dave and Fi forwarded
stuff to us, tickets and that sort of thing'.
00.08.06 1578 'So the make up of the group then was''
Reply 'Erm well Matt and myself and Grace erm Russell, Jane and
their two children Ella and Evie, erm Dave and Fi and their two
children Lilly and Scarlet and Gerry and Kate and their children
Madeleine and Sean and Amelie, oh and, and then Diane erm Fionas
mum was coming too'.
1578 'Okay so nine adults''
Reply 'So nine, nine adults, eight children'.
1578 'Eight children. Were you aware of any hierarchy within the
group at all''
1578 'Within the circle of friends''
Reply 'No we're all sort of very, you know very even, everyone
on the same level erm'.
1578 'Was there a particular reason for example that, that David
booked the holiday, arranged it and booked it''
Reply 'No erm I think, you know he made the suggestion so it
was kind of left up to him to organise it, not for any
particular reason erm when he puts his mind to things, he's
quite good at organising things like that (inaudible)'.
Reply 'No, I mean no reason really'.
1578 'So you live in London and you travelled from which
Reply 'Gatwick erm Russell and Jane and their children came to
stay with us on the Friday night and then we'd all, it was, it
was all a bit weird actually cos it was almost like the holiday
should never have happened in the first place erm because Ella
was ill the week before we went, erm she had an abscess on her
foot that she had to go into Hospital and have removed and so
Russell and Jane didnt know whether they'd be able to come and
so it was, it was literally a very last minute thing for them,
erm we kind of didnt really know 'til the Friday morning whether
they were gonna come or not, erm cos of Ellas foot, so anyway
but they did and they came up to us on Friday night and we'd
ordered taxis, or a taxi for the morning to take us to the
Airport and the flight was about, I think the flight might have
been about eight o'clock erm and we'd ordered a taxi and made it
really clear that there were four adults and three children, you
know plus all the luggage, so it would have to be a mini bus or
something like that and then when the taxi turned up in the
morning, it was just an estate car, well like theres no way we
can get in that, erm so it was a bit panic stations and we both
had to go in separate car, you know we took our own cars to the
Airport and erm on the way, we're trying to book the, you know
that valet parking, so that you just turn up and get out and
they take your car off, erm I remember being on the phone going,
travelling to the Airport and most of them not being able, but
we eventually got through to one which we'd used before quite a
lot, erm and so they could, they could sort us out, so we did
kind of get there in time and everything in the end, erm but
that kind of didnt seem to be a very good start to the holiday
in the first place, erm and, and then we, the flight and
everything was fine erm talked to a few people on the plane who
were also going to the same resort, erm yeah and it was just, it
was weird the way it was, cos then Matt was ill the first day
and it was kind of, I dont know, if you look, you know with
hindsight, there were lots of things that happened that kind of,
you just thought oh well, I dont know, maybe the holiday should
never have happened in the first place you know, if we hadn't
have gone, erm everyone ended up being ill at some stage and,
and you think you know, thats never happened before erm you
know, none of us are ever ill'.
00.12.19 1578 'Just talk us through, talk us through the journey
then from the Airport, over, over to, to the apartment''
Reply 'Erm it was just on a coach, erm with some of the Mark
WARNER staff, erm they kind of came round and talked about child
care and we had various forms to fill in'.
1578 'Sorry, were there any problems with the flight for
Reply 'No, mmm no I dont think so, think it was all fine'.
1578 'No issues with, with the flight out there''
1578 'And the transfers and''
Reply 'No, it was all, it all went quite smoothly, erm then we
just got on a coach when we got there, got to the Airport'.
Reply 'Erm and they dished out you know maps of the resort and
where our rooms were and I think the keys were in those
envelopes as well, you know the rooms were pre allocated erm'.
1578 'So prior to arrival then at the resort, you knew which
apartment you were in''
Reply 'Yes, yeah'.
1578 'Which apartment were you in''
Reply 'Erm 5B, which was next, which, erm when we made the
booking, or when Dave made the booking, erm we, there was a bit
of erm, I dont know, there was a bit of aggro about the rooms or
some, something, or about the price, I cant remember what it was
and then there was an email that Matt had sent, which I'm sure
Russell mentioned, erm kind of which he'd meant just to send to
like Dave and Russell but had gone actually back to the Mark
WARNER representative as well, erm sort of being slightly
derogatory I think and it was oops you know it shouldnt have
gone there, erm and we'd kind of demanded to have all our rooms
together. Basically I think, I mean Dave had chosen the resort
and hadn't really read the small print, cos we assumed it was
going to be like every other Mark WARNER resort where you're in
a compound and you know thats all sort of gated off but erm this
was different, it was erm, it was basically the village and the
apartments were dotted all over the place, so you know we could
have been anywhere, and could have been completely separate from
each other, so we asked if we could, you know if they could
really make sure that we were all together because otherwise erm
it would mean you know we couldn't really have had dinner
together or anything like that, if somebody was, you know we
were kind of concerned about you know being at one end of the
village and somebody was at the other'.
00.14.57 1578 'Yes'.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of
this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening,
which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where
the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the
door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a
compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either
had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or
erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening
ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us
all to have the apartments all together'.
1578 'And who requested that''
Reply 'Well I think, I mean it was, I think it was Dave or, or
and there were various emails between Dave and Matt and Russell,
I wasn't, I never seemed to be on the email so erm but I think
yeah when it, when we realised there was no baby listening and
that you know, potentially we could all be spread all over the
place, erm we asked if they could make sure that we'd be
together, erm and we were actually so, all the apartments were
1578 'So transfer then from the Airport to the apartments, any
issues there at all''
Reply 'No, no, just on the coach, can't remember if it took, I
think maybe an hour sort of thing, erm'.
1578 'And you were with''
Reply 'We were with Russell and Jane'.
1578 'Russell and Jane and their two children''
1578 'So there were six adults, three children''
Reply 'Erm four adults, three children'.
00.16.35 1578 'Sorry yes four adults, three children'.
Reply 'And erm yeah, just the coach and that was fine, got all
the details about the rooms and the keys I think as well
(inaudible), I think, we certainly got the number of the
apartment, I can't remember whether the keys were in that
envelope as well, or whether we had to kind of go to the
Reception and get the key when we arrived, erm yeah, I mean the
coach dropped us off at the Reception, erm so we might have
actually picked up the key at the Reception but we knew what
apartment we were gonna be in while we were on the coach, with
all the paperwork that they gave us'.
1578 'In the welcome pack''
Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.
1578 'Okay. So what time would you have arrived at the resort''
Reply 'Erm I think it was early afternoon, perhaps about two-ish,
something like that'.
1578 'This is on Saturday''
Reply 'This is on the Saturday'.
1578 'The twenty eighth of April''
1578 'Two thousand and seven''
Reply 'Yeah erm'.
1578 'So talk us through what you did''
Reply 'Erm we must have had something to eat, we had sandwiches
on the plane, erm we arrived, I mean we would have put Grace
down for a sleep, erm yeah I mean I can't remember now whether
we did or not but you know she did have a sleep every day, so we
would have put her down and it would have been the right sort of
time in terms of (inaudible) she normally sleeps from sort of
one 'til three, that would have been about right, got there
about two, erm and I think you know, just sort of unpacked in
the apartment and sorted ourselves out and then erm, and then I
think Gerry and Kate and Dave and Fi and Diane arrived with all
the children maybe about four-ish, cos they'd flown from East
Midlands erm and got a taxi from the Airport to Praia Da Luz,
erm so I think, I think I remember them arriving perhaps when
Grace had just woken up or was about to wake up, erm and then at
five o'clock there was erm you know a welcome talk erm in the
Tapas Bar and we went down to that'.
00.19.24 1578 'All of you''
1578 'As a group''
Reply 'Yeah erm and I mean that probably lasted about twenty
minutes or around half an hour, erm and I think, I mean there
was, there was a play, there was a play area just by the Tapas
Bar, so I think the children probably just played there a bit
afterwards, erm and then dinner that night was at the Millennium
Restaurant, which was you know sort of about a ten minute walk
from where our apart, apartments were, erm I think dinner there
that night was gonna start at either six or six thirty, maybe
six thirty and we all trooped up there then for dinner, erm so
yeah I think we just hung around, you know sort of by the pool
and on the recreation area after the talk'.
1578 'So before we move on to your routine, a summary of your
routine through the week'.
1578 'Let's just cover the apartment allocation'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'Just for the benefit of the tape'.
Reply 'Yeah, yeah'.
1578 'You're in 5B'.
Reply 'Yeah we're in 5B, erm Gerry and Kate and Sean and Amelie
and Madeleine were in 5A, so they were on the end, then we were
next to them'.
00.20.53 1578 'Yes'.
Reply 'Our apartment only had one bedroom, so basically the
bedroom that Matt and I and Grace slept in, was the one next to
the one that Madeleine was taken from, erm which is always the
one thats shown actually, when they've sort of flashed up on TV,
erm and then there was kind of a, a dip in the courtyard, there
was a space and the courtyard there, 5C was empty, Russell and
Jane and Ella and Evie were in 5D, and then Dave and Fi and
Diane and Lilly and Scarlet were upstairs in, I dont know what,
was that 5 something, probably 5, 5H or I or, but anyway they
were on the floor above, basically above erm above Russell and
Janes apartment pretty much I think'.
1578 'Just describe the, very briefly the layout of your
1578 'Access and so forth and what it was like inside''
Reply 'Yeah okay. Well when you went in the front door, which
was, you came to that through the car park of the main road'.
Reply 'Erm in the front door was the corridor here, it was a
corridor here, the bedroom erm, the bedroom was kind of
basically behind the front door and then the first room on the
left off the corridor is the bathroom, then opposite that,
there's a door into the kitchen and then basically the sort of
lounge dining area bit was open plan and then there were patio
doors at the end and a balcony and then sort of a bit of a
garden and then a gate out onto a path that ran along the back
of the apartments'.
1578 'Okay. Yourself and Matthew obviously slept in the bedroom I
Reply 'Yes and Grace as well actually'.
1578 'And what about Grace''
Reply 'She, yeah because erm, we didn't, we dont really like
sleeping in the same room as her but there wasn't really nowhere
else to put her cos you know, obviously she was going to bed at
seven thirty and then we'd have had to kind of hide in the
bathroom or something for the rest of the night, so we put, yeah
she slept in our room as well erm'.
1578 'Okay and the, that would have overlooked which side''
Reply 'That overlooked the car park side'.
Reply 'There was, there was kind of one big shutter I think and
then a narrower one it you were looking out, erm to the car
park, there was a wide shutter here and then there was a narrow
one, erm window and shutters'.
1578 'In terms of entry and exit to your apartment, which entry
or exit did you most frequently use''
Reply 'We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of
all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we'd go out the
patio doors and just leave them unlocked, erm cos you couldn't
lock them from the outside but I mean certainly at night when we
went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of
hours, then we went out the front door and you could you know,
double lock it so'.
Reply 'Erm yeah so thats what we did'.
1578 'Okay. If we can now move on to a summary of your routine'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday''
Reply 'Okay erm'.
1578 'If you had a routine of course'.
Reply 'Yeah I mean we did in terms of lunch cos yeah that other
thing, that Mark WARNER resort is that it was only half board,
so we had to find our own lunch, cos all the other resorts were
you know, you get all your meals, erm so the Saturday night we
had dinner at the Millennium, which was all you know, which was
quite chaotic because there were eight, you know eight kids and
nine adults erm it was like erm, we dont really want to be doing
this every night, erm and it, well Matt, Matt wasn't well that
night, he threw up a few times, erm so on the Sunday, he stayed
in bed for quite a bit of the morning I think, erm and I cant,
what did we do on the Sunday, erm, er, well you know Grace went
to creche in the morning erm with Ella and Evie, Lilly and
Scarlet, well all the kids went to creche, erm but there were
Madeleine and Ella because they're older went to a different,
they went down, their creche was sort of near the main reception
of the Ocean Club, whereas the rest of them, there was Ella,
Madeleine and Ella were down in the main reception of the Ocean
Club and so was Scarlet, cos the sort of baby creche was down
there as well and then the rest of them were with the creche
pretty much just behind the Tapas Bar, so they were all in
there. So Grace went to creche erm, cant remember what I did,
probably tried to get some sun, it was quite, a bit chilly
though but erm, erm and then erm we would have picked up Grace
from creche at sort of twelve, half twelve I think and then that
first day I think we just had lunch sort of in the Tapas but you
know the menu wasn't really that suitable for your kids, erm and
then took her back to the room to have a sleep, erm and then
while she slept you know, we just kind of read outside on the,
on the balcony on the veranda, erm that morning, there might
have been some sort of tennis, you know social I think perhaps'.
00.27.18 1578 'This is on the Sunday''
Reply 'On the Sunday, erm, might yeah, maybe tennis, social and
then you know you decided whether you wanted to do tennis
lessons or, that sort of thing and then, I think that must have
been the Sunday, I remember sort of having a bit of a hit
afterwards with Gerry and Kate and I think Jane, erm but it was
just, yeah really just seeing what you know activities there
were and what we might want to do for the rest of the week, erm
and then, I mean Grace was asleep for about two hours, so she
would get up about half three, four o'clock and then I think we
just went to the pool, we discovered it was pretty cold and so
she wasn't that keen on swimming, neither was I, erm and I think
Matt was up by that stage, think he came out in the afternoon,
erm and then we'd booked to eat in the Tapas Bar that night
because The Millennium had just been one kind of a bit of trek
and a bit too stressful with all the kids and it was, thought it
would be quite nice to have dinner by ourselves, so erm I booked
a table for eight thirty in the Tapas for us and we just thought
we'd do our own sort of baby listening as you know we, well you
know if we'd been in another Mark WARNER resort thats what would
00.29.02 1578 'When you say us, who do you mean''
Reply 'As a group so'.
1578 'The whole group''
Reply 'Yeah. So basically we'd go and have dinner and then we'd
sort of run back you know every fifteen twenty minutes and have
a listen at the door and make sure nobodys screaming their head
1578 'So you, you booked the table on the Sunday evening''
Reply 'On the Sunday yes'.
1578 'For eight thirty''
1578 'For nine adults''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, erm so the children had tea at the sort of,
there's a little, the little area near the Tapas Bar, they had
high tea there all the kids not just ours, they had tea there at
about quarter to five, erm and then afterwards I think we just
played in the recreation area and then you know Grace, I mean
you know she's normally in bed by half seven, so we kind of
stuck to the same sort of times as we did in the UK. Got her
down and then had showers and kind of ready to go down to the
table for eight thirty, erm yeah and then went down there for
dinner, erm we'd take turns going back to, to the room to
1578 'So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in
respect of checking on the children''
Reply 'That we would just check our own children basically,
1578 'How often''
Reply 'Erm about sort of every twenty minutes, I mean we kind
of, I mean Gerry and Kate were very good about you know doing it
every twenty minutes, I think they must have been a bit oh okay,
think its about twenty minutes so we'll, we'll go and have a
look and you know so everyone went at different times, it wasn't
like everyone suddenly got up to go and check, erm'.
00.30.51 1578 'Did you have any monitoring devices yourself''
Reply 'No, no, but on that Sunday night, I dont, Matt didnt
come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before,
so he didnt, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didnt
actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday'.
1578 'But there were evenings during the holiday when both of
1578 'Were out''
1578 'And Grace was in the apartment''
1578 'And when Grace was in the apartment, would you leave any
Reply 'No, the patio doors were locked and the front door was
double locked yeah'.
Reply 'I mean you know, it wasn't 'til, I mean we hadn't
checked whether the windows were locked or anything, you know it
wasn't 'til, until Madeleine disappeared that we actually
checked that the windows were locked cos I know which you know
we should have done I suppose but'.
1578 'What do you mean by locked''
Reply 'Well locked from the inside cos you'.
1578 'Locked or lockable''
Reply 'Well locked, I mean we, you kind of assumed that they
were cos the shutters were down and erm, then we left the
shutters down the whole time, we didn't bother to open them, erm
not even in the day, erm'.
00.32.04 1578 'How was the window locked''
Reply 'Oh it just had some sort of little catch erm but you
know it was just when Madeleine disappeared, we had a thinking
well you know, could a cleaner or somebody from the inside have
just kind of left it unlocked for that day, erm you know so that
somebody coming in at night, could come in from the outside by
lifting up the shutters and opening the window, you know if
they'd come in from the, you know through the window, cos we
could never really work out why the shutters were up and the
window was open, if I dont know, no it was just our theories of
how somebody might have got in, erm you know, if they'd come in
the patio door, why would they have gone out the window, I'm
sure that they could have just gone back out that way, or they
could have even just gone out the front door, erm which would
have been much easier, erm so one of the, our theories for why
the window and the shutters were open, were that you know, they
came in that way and then but that would mean obviously that the
window would have had to have been unlocked, you know either all
week, or sometime during the day you know, thats kind of a bit
of a risky thing to do because actually you know, if, if they
had been checked before the children went to bed and you know
Gerry and Kate had found the window unlocked, then they would
have locked it and then that would have kind of scuppered
anyones plans for coming in that way'.
1578 'The locking mechanism on the window, was that key operated,
or just manually''
Reply 'No I think it was just like a little catch that sort of
went, it was a sliding window erm, there might have been a
button on the handle, erm yeah it might have been a button on
the, on the handle and the window slid back'.
00.33.51 1578 'Okay
1578 'So thats, thats Sunday'.
Reply 'Thats Sunday, erm so Monday I mean Matt, Matt was
better, erm were we, cant remember what we did particularly, erm
we played tennis a bit, we didn't have any group lessons Matt
and I, we had a private lesson I think, it was supposed to be on
the, we had a private lesson and it was supposed to be on the
Wednesday but it was a wet day, so it ended up being the
Thursday and I think before that, we just sort of knocked around
on the tennis courts, erm with everyone else and everyone else
was having group lessons. Erm Matt did go down to the beach and
do bits of sailing and I think I just you know, kind of read my
book and sat by the pool, erm was usually in the mornings while
Grace was in creche and then you know we'd always get her at
twelve or half twelve, whatever it was, I think it went 'til
half twelve, so you know pick her up between those times and
then after that Sunday, every day after that we ate, we all had
lunch in erm Dave and Fi's apartment, erm it was you know, pasta
or something for the kids and Diane would make sandwiches for
all of us'.
1578 'What time would that lunch period be''
Reply 'It, erm about one really, by the time those kids were
actually eating, it was probably about one-ish, so between one
and two, erm Gerry and Kate didn't come up and have lunch there,
erm because the twins didn't sleep in the afternoon, so they'd
often you know, take a picnic and go down to the beach erm. I
remember one, I think it might have been on the Monday that they
came up to Dave and Fi's after, sort of after lunch but
otherwise they did their own thing at lunch time and the rest of
us went up to Dave and Fi's apartment and the kids had lunch
there and you know we'd have a bite to eat as well and then we'd
take, we'd take Grace down for a sleep and you know, so she was
generally sleeping between two and four there, which is a bit
later really than she normally does in the UK'.
1578 'Okay and then in the evenings''
Reply 'And then the evening yes, so on that, cos the Sunday
night had worked well with us sort of eating dinner as adults
and you know just going back to check on the children, erm that,
but at the Tapas, they said they, you could only book in the
morning, you couldn't kind of block book or anything like that,
you had to kind of call them at you know, eight or nine o'clock
and say that you wanted a table for that night, erm and because
we were a big group of nine, erm I begged and pleaded with them
to let us book for the whole week, a table at eight thirty every
00.36.51 1578 'When did you do that''
Reply 'Because otherwise'.
1578 'No sorry, when''
Reply 'Oh when, that was on the Monday morning, erm because you
know otherwise we, it would have just been really difficult to,
well have a, have dinner in peace and erm, er you know we
couldn't really have gone anywhere else cos oh yeah, we'd have
had, I'd have to take the children or put them, there was a like
a creche you could put them in, in the evening when you went to
dinner but you know we were all kind of, you know the kids
generally go to bed at seven thirty and they're tired out, they
need to sleep but if they went somewhere else, they wouldn't
have slept and erm, and you would have been up late, so we
didn't want to do that and you know the Tapas was there and you
know the apartment, you know we could see the apartments just
there, you know it was only sort of you know, birds eye view was
only sort of you know, thirty metres or something like that, so
erm and you know, and we kept going and checking, so that seemed
like kind of a good option'.
1578 'So there was this rigorous checking procedure''
Reply 'Yes, yeah every night'.
1578 'Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday evening''
Reply 'Mmm yeah'.
1578 'And of course Thursday evening''
Reply 'Mmm yeah'.
1578 'So on, on a normal evening'.
1578 'How many times would, would yourself and, and Matthew have
gone to check on Grace''
Reply 'Erm I suppose, we'd sit at the table about eight thirty,
so erm we probably went about two or three times each during the
course of the meal, erm yeah, well Sunday night Matt wasn't
there but he was in the apartment with Grace so I didn't check,
Monday night we were both at the table, erm and we just took
1578 'And did you wear watches''
1578 'So would your checks have been time based or meal based''
Reply 'Yeah, erm well I mean they kind of felt like they were
every sort of twenty minutes or so, but they were probably more
meal base, it wasn't a you know, we need to go check in five
minutes, it was oh well, you know we've been sitting here a
while, lets go and check, erm I mean you know it wasn't kind of
1578 'So you tried to consciously go every twenty minutes or so''
Reply 'Yeah, I mean there could have been'.
1578 'But there may have been some, some sort of overlap on the
Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.
1578 'To try and fit in with the serving''
Reply 'Yeah the food and yes, mmm yeah'.
1578 'Okay, and when you went to check on Grace, what sort of
checks would you conduct''
Reply 'Erm well we'd go into the room, which ordinarily we
wouldn't do to be honest, erm but she seemed to have diarrhoea
and kind of, I mean she'd settled quite well actually cos she'd
been tired every evening, erm but every morning when she woke
up, she had diarrhoea and it had gone right through her grow bag
and so there's all of this sort of horrendous smell, so in the
evenings when we were checking, we'd go into the room just to
see if you know, there was any sort of smell yet, erm and just
to make sure she was alright, to make sure she hadn't been sick,
partly I think cos Matt had been sick, just wanted to make sure
that she hadn't been, in case it was some sort of bug'.
1578 'Okay, and the route taken''
Reply 'Was up the road and then in through the car park at the
back and in through the front door'.
1578 'In through the front door''
Reply 'Mmm yeah, I mean the patio doors were locked, erm yeah I
didn't really like going up there by myself, it was, like going
through that car park was quite dark and there was never anyone
around, it was a bit, you know made me feel a bit uneasy'.
1578 'Okay. What about the lighting there''
Reply 'Well there were lights, there were street lights along
the road as you came out of the Ocean Club, erm sort of orangey
you know street lights and along the main road at the back and
the car park was quite dark cos there were quite a lot of trees
that were sort of on that corner, erm and so the car park was
quite dark and then when you actually got, you came down a ramp,
or down some steps into the sort of area in front of the
apartments and erm you know they were, there were sort of
lights, you press a button and they come on for a certain length
of time, so you know, you put those on to get to the front door,
it wasn't pitch black but I'm not keen on the dark anyway so
1578 'Okay. So the day routines'.
1578 'Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday''
Reply 'Yeah pretty much the same, sort of just you know, tennis
or pool or you know lazing around really, erm while the kids
were in creche in the morning'.
00.42.07 1578 'Did you play tennis yourself''
Reply 'Yes, erm'.
1578 'Did you take your own equipment''
1578 'Did anyone else in the group take their equipment''
1578 'When I say group, sorry I mean racquets and so forth''
Reply 'Racquets and stuff, yeah, yeah we took our racquets,
nobody else did, erm then we booked a private lesson, erm which
we supposed to have on the Wednesday but I was ill on the
Tuesday night, erm so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was
raining anyway, so I think all, all the tennis lessons and
everything were cancelled, erm but so I was ill so, I was in
1578 'And when you say we, you're referring to yourself and
Reply 'Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different
I suppose cos it rained and things were off, although by the
afternoon it had cleared up, erm and so on Wednesday night I
didnt go to dinner cos I'd thrown up the night before, you know
it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I'm never ill,
neither is Matt, as long as I've known him I've never known him
be sick, erm'.
1578 'So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the
apartment with Grace''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a
while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been
quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I'd been up
most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday
night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine
and Sean had you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday
night and asking where erm, they'd said they'd been crying and,
and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you
know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but'.
1578 'On the Wednesday evening'.
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday
night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said
they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or
wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this
was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she
mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then
after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I
wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to
get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you
know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt
hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well
have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the
apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because
she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of
six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in
the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and
Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the
comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace
was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off,
1578 'On Wednesday evening'.
1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone
Reply 'About half eight'.
1578 'About half eight''
1578 'And do you recall what time he returned''
Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than
any of the other nights'.
1578 'Why was that''
Reply 'Cos they'd gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple
of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just
got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know,
it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed
to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might
have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments'.
00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the
Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''
Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.
1578 'Did you hear the patio door slide next door for example''
Reply 'Mmm no, mmm no'.
1578 'Did you hear that sliding at any point during the
Reply 'Mmm erm no not that I remember, I mean not'.
1578 'Was it physically possible to, to be in your apartment
and hear the patio door slide in 5A''
Reply 'Erm if our patio doors had been open, you probably would
have been able to yeah, cos the, their patio, oh no, there were,
erm, is that a win, just a window, because Gerry and Kates
apartment was bigger than ours, we just had one set of patio
doors at the back and then next to our lounge, it was their
bedroom and then there were big windows there, I'm not sure
whether they'd have opened or not, erm and then on the, and then
next to them were the patio doors that were the access doors'.
Reply 'Or the ones that we used as the access doors, erm'.
1578 'So there was sort of a room between their patio doors and
Reply 'Yes, yeah, I mean I think, I dont know, maybe, I mean if
our patio doors were open and you kind of mmm, or if you were
sitting on the veranda, you'd probably hear their doors sliding,
but otherwise not, I dont think you would really, erm'.
00.47.52 1578 'And do you recall at what time you slept that
Reply 'I think I went to bed about nine-ish, erm but I couldn't
say that for definite'.
1578 'And you didn't hear anything unusual''
1578 'Did you see anything unusual''
1578 'Anyone hanging around''
Reply 'There was just never anyone around, that was the thing
you know, it was just like dead the place really, you know which
is why we, kind of all comfortable in leaving the children and
going back and checking them, cos if it had been really busy, we
wouldn't have done that, you know if there'd been lots of people
milling around all the time, it wouldn't have felt right, I mean
the place was empty'.
Reply 'You know it was so quiet, you know it was the beginning
of the season and erm, yeah, you know if it had been remotely
busy, you know, it wouldn't have felt right leaving them and
just going back and checking them now and then'.
578 'Okay. So we move on then, we move forward to Thursday'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'The third of May, are you able to summarise the days
Reply 'Yeah, the day was actually, it was different to the
others because, well it was warmer weather wise, erm we went to
the Millennium for breakfast as usual, erm we did that every
day, Gerry and Kate didn't, it was just too far for them to go
with the twins, so they didn't ever go for breakfast up there, I
think apart from the first morning, erm so Matt, Grace and I
went up to the Millennium, there was nobody else there from our
group, erm and just as we were finishing and leaving, Russell
arrived with Ella and Evie, erm Jane, because their tennis
lesson had been cancelled the day before, Jane was in the,
stayed back at the Ocean Club to start her lesson, cos that
started at nine, erm and so I took Grace to the creche and Matt
stayed with Russell, erm and they took Ella, I think they took
Ella down to her creche and then the, Matt wanted to go down to
the beach and go sailing, erm so I took Grace to creche and then
erm Matt and I were having a tennis lesson at eleven o'clock,
and so basically it just, you know I just sat by the pool and
read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate,
Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a
bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well,
remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and
that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it
must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and Ella and their
sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their
creche activities, erm and Kate didn't have her camera and Jane
was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both
Madeleine and Ella, thats one, that poster of Madeleine with the
tennis b*lls, that sort of pictures'. 00.51
00.51.21 1578 'That was taken on the''
Reply 'Yeah that was that morning'.
Reply 'Yeah, erm so we sort of watched them have their tennis
lesson, erm and there were a few other parents there, sort of
taking photos and that sort of thing, erm and then they headed
back off to creche and then Matt came up from the beach and we
had our tennis lesson at eleven with Dan, whos you know, one of
the coaches there, erm and then yeah that, well that went 'til
twelve and then basically we got Grace from the creche then, erm
and then erm I think we went to Dave and Fi's you know, for
lunch as usual, Dave and Fi's apartment, erm and then when Grace
was having her sleep, erm Jane and I went down to the tennis
court and had a hit, erm cos she'd had her lesson that morning
and I'd had mine so, we had about an hour hitting, just hitting
the ball really, erm and Gerry and Kate were watching and erm
and then we went back up and Grace was still asleep I think, so
was Evie, erm so Matt and Russell went down to the beach to go
sailing and you know, Jane and I said we'd get the kids up and
then we'd head down to the beach when they were up, erm and then
I think we ended up going down to the beach perhaps about, must
have been about four, half four, something like that and Diane
and Fiona and Lilly and Scarlet came down as well, can't
remember where Dave was, I think Dave had gone windsurfing, yeah
he, he was down at the beach as well, he'd gone windsurfing, erm
so we just headed down to the beach, it was a kind of a much
warmer day than it had been previously, erm so I guess we were
down there about half four-ish, quarter to five, erm and the
kids just played on the beach a bit and sort of paddled in the
sea a little bit and Matt and Russell came in from their sail
and Matt had fallen overboard and Russell had managed to go back
and rescue him so, cos it was, it was quite windy and I think
they were quite big waves and Matt couldn't see the boat and it
was like, well this will be the story of the holiday, you know,
the story to tell the grandchildren which is, you know which is
what we said at the table at dinner that night, erm, erm, so
they came in from their sail, Dave came in from his windsurf and
you know, we just hung about on the beach for a bit, and then we
decided that the kids, we'd give the kids their tea at the erm,
there's a restaurant on the beach, I think its called Paradiso,
erm give the kid, the kids their tea there, rather than go back
up for high tea, erm I think maybe Russell, Russell must have
gone up to get Ella cos she was at creche that afternoon, so I
think he went up to the main reception of the Ocean Club where
her creche was and got her, brought her back down and then erm
we sat outside on the sort of decking of the restaurant and kids
had tea, we had a few, you know a couple of drinks, erm there
were some swings and stuff there and they played on that, in the
sand, erm we were there for quite a while, certainly 'til about
six, six-ish, half six maybe'.
1578 'So who was down there in the group on beach''
Reply 'Erm, Russell, Jane, Ella and Evie, erm Dave, Fi, Lilly
and Scarlet and Diane and then Matt, Grace and I. Gerry and Kate
didn't come to the beach in the afternoon, I don't know where
they were actually, erm although when we were on the beach, we,
I think we saw Kate going for a run, she was running when we
were, basically they all went to creche in the afternoon, all
the children, so and I'm not sure what Gerry and Kate were up to
but they, Kate yeah was running, I saw her running on the beach,
probably about, that must have been about five o'clock something
like that maybe, half four, five o'clock'.
00.55.59 1578 'Did you see her at that point''
Reply 'Yeah, she just run past us basically'.
1578 'Which way was she running''
Reply 'Erm, well she ran that way, its kind of you know, if
you're looking out at sea, she run to the left'.
1578 'To the left'.
Reply 'And then ran back (inaudible)'.
1578 'Did you see her run back''
Reply 'Yes, saw her run both ways'.
1578 'How long after''
Reply 'Well maybe about ten minutes or something, you can only
go so far along that beach and then you have to come back, might
have even been less than ten minutes, you could see her kind of
you know, going into the distance and then coming back'.
1578 'But Gerry wasn't with her''
Reply 'No, no, he might have, if it was about, cos if it was
about five-ish, then he would have been at tea with the kids,
high tea, when the kids had their tea so, erm, but I dont know
what time it was, I mean it might have been a bit earlier than
that but it would have been more or less round about high tea
time I think mmm'.
1578 'How many occasions did you see Madeleine on the
Reply 'Erm I think just really at, when she was doing the
tennis, having her tennis lessons, as part of her activities,
1578 'Is that the last time you saw her''
Reply 'I think that was the last time I saw her yeah'.
00.57.24 1578 'Okay. So you've gone from the beach back up to
Reply 'Yeah we went up, well erm but in the evenings, they had
social tennis, which I think started at six thirty and went 'til
seven thirty and after about the first, you know the Sunday and
Monday night, nobody had really turned up and we said that we'd
like to go but it wasn't a great time for us cos it was bath
time and getting the kids ready for bed, so we asked them if
they could move it forward, erm so they said they couldn't sort
of bring it forward to five thirty but I think they brought it
forward to six o'clock for us, erm and I think, so, so that on
Thursday night it was mens social and erm, although I think it
was probably about six thirty when we were still down at the
beach, we've always kind of said, oh well you know, should we go
to social tennis and we kind of said well you ought to because
you know, they moved it deliberately for us, erm you know so
that we could go, so you really ought to go up, erm so Matt,
Dave and Russell headed back up to the apartments, I think that,
it must have been about half six, quarter to seven, something
like that, erm and you know we, we kind of followed, I don't
know, ten or fifteen minutes later, I think the kids were eating
their ice cream and erm, you know we came up after they'd
finished, erm so we probably got up there about seven-ish or
something, a bit after seven'.
1578 'To where''
Reply 'Er up to, where the tennis courts were, which were next
to the Tapas Bar, erm cos that recreation areas just in front of
the tennis courts, so we headed up there and the kids just
played on the swings and slides while the boys played tennis'.
1578 'So who was there at that point''
Reply 'Erm in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was
Jane, Ella and Evie, Fiona, Diane , Lilly and Scarlet, Grace and
I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, erm Matt, Dave,
Russell, Gerry were there, Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were
playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday
00.59.50 1578 'So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already
1578 'And you joined them''
Reply 'Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching
and supervising the children, erm and then I think shortly after
we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he
was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and
help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then, erm and Matt,
Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was
the coach, erm and we, the children played on the slide and
stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to
get them ready and left the boys playing tennis'.
1578 'So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis
courts to watch them playing''
Reply 'I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe
about ten past seven'.
1578 'And the only people not present would have been''
Reply 'Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren't there, I
think they'd, I dont think they were there anyway and I know
that they'd left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before
we arrived, cos I know they'd been there, I think when the boys
had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to
get them ready for bed, so I don't think they were there when we
got there, erm no'.
1578 'And then a short time later, Gerry departed''
1578 'To the apartment to give assistance''
Reply 'Yeah, mmm yeah'.
1578 'Do you know what time that was''
Reply 'Erm maybe it was probably, you know maybe about twenty
past seven, he didnt really stay, I dont remember him staying
that much longer after we arrived there with the children, he
obviously played a bit of tennis with the boys and then sort of
decided to head off, yeah so its probably about twenty past
seven, quarter past seven, something like that'.
01.01.58 1578 'So we're obviously approaching now the critical
1578 'I'd like you to you know concentrate very hard and take
yourself back and just relive everything you did from that point
onwards, through the course of the evening''
Reply 'Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think
err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can't
remember whether that night Ella and, Ella might have had a bath
in our apartment with Grace, not sure, I think it might have
been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half
seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than
we would normally'.
1578 'Who's we''
Reply 'Erm well Grace and I went back to our apartment and Jane
went back with Ella and Evie to theirs and Diane and Fi and
Lilly and Scarlet went up to theirs, erm'.
1578 'Leaving the men to continue''
Reply 'Yeah continue their tennis. Erm I mean it would have
been about seven thirty, maybe even a bit later, maybe about
twenty to eight, I mean it was certainly later than normal, cos
normally because they're in bed by half seven, erm went back to
the apartment, I think Ella came and had a bath with Grace in
our apartment, erm you know we often kind of went into each
others apartments, sort of around bed time or just before, or
just after, erm so I think Ella and Grace had a bath, erm and
then I think we were reading books in the lounge area of our
apartment and erm Matt came back from tennis'.
1578 'Who's we, who's reading books''
Reply 'Erm Grace and I and I think Ella was there as well, I
can't be certain about that though, whether Ella was there or
not, erm but yeah, I mean Grace and I were reading and then Matt
came back from tennis and you know we probably read another book
or had a bit of a cuddle and then put Grace down, so she
probably went down about, it was probably about eight o'clock
that night, erm and then I had a shower and got ready for dinner
and Matt did as well, erm and because you know, everything was
happening, it happened a bit later that evening, we were later
getting down to the table than we had been on, cos you know I
mean the tables booked for eight thirty, erm and you know by the
time we've both get ready and stuff, it was, it was probably
about half eight or you know maybe a bit later, erm and I
remember seeing, we saw Gerry and Kate walk from, from our
apartment, you could see the tables at the Tapas, erm I remember
seeing Gerry and Kate sort of walk erm you know, into the Ocean
Club and across to the Tapas, erm so Matt and I kind of sort of
you know we'd better get going and that was, and walking down,
we went out the front, the patio doors were locked, we went out
the front door, locked that, erm through the car park and walked
down the road and I think I remember going across the car park
and asking Matt what the time was and it was about twenty to
eight, er twenty to nine sorry, erm and so we were a bit later,
erm and then when we got down there, Gerry and Kate were there
already and were talking to erm I think he was called Steve,
Steve who had played tennis with us and his wife, can't remember
what her name was now, erm was erm, anyway they were sitting at
the table having dinner and Gerry and Kate were talking to them
and Jane was there as well and she was sort of talking with them
as well, erm and then we all sat down, erm Russell hadn't come
down with Jane because I think Evie hadn't settled or both girls
hadn't settled yet, so he was just hanging on until they sort of
dropped off to sleep, erm and so Russell probably, Russell was
the next one to arrive at the table and that was probably at
about, probably about quarter to nine, maybe ten to nine,
probably not quite ten to nine, you know like quarter to or
eight forty seven or something like that, erm and then Dave and
Fi are always late for everything, which there was a bit of a
sort of standing joke, so erm and we could see their apartment
from the table, their lights were all still on and obviously
they hadn't got themselves out of there yet, erm and so at about
five to nine, Matt said just he'd go up and get them and hurry
them along, so he went back, yeah up the road and in through the
car park, but actually as he was going up the road I think, he
passed them erm and as he was leaving the table and said that
he'd go and get Dave and Fi and Diane, erm he said he'd just
have a listen outside the windows of the apartments, just to
make sure there was no crying or anything, erm so he, he passed
them in the street, they came and sat at the table and you know
a few minutes later, Matt came back and he'd listened outside
our window and you know, Grace was quiet and he listened outside
Madeleine and the twins bedroom and that was all quiet, you know
and all the, you know all the shutters were down'.
01.08.18 1578 'Did he tell you that''
Reply 'Not at the time but afterwards, but I mean he said yeah
everything was quiet, he listened at all the windows and also
Ella and Evies I think, I mean I know he definitely listened at
Graces and at Madeleine and Sean and Amelies windows and
everything was quiet so he came back, I mean you know, that, and
that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn't
done that before you know, that hadn't been part of the routine,
sort of listening, even listening at other peoples windows, but
you know, wed all pretty much just arrived at the tables and
erm, so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really'.
Reply 'Erm so he was back at the table by probably nine, or you
know and erm and then a couple of minutes later, Gerry got up to
go and check cos they'd been, you know by that time, they'd been
at the table probably for about half an hour I suppose, twenty
five minutes maybe'.
Reply 'Erm so Gerry went off erm came back a couple of minutes
later, erm and then Jane went off at about ten past nine to
check on Ella and Evie, erm and you know, and then you know yes
she came back and everything was quiet there as well, and I
think by, when Jane came back, we were all sitting down, we had
our starters and ate that'.
01.10.08 1578 'What about Gerry returning''
Reply 'Yeah Gerry had come back sort of, erm well you know
before Jane had, you know he'd only been gone a few minutes I
think, not very long, erm he said he'd seen, to met J, he'd met
Jez on the way back, who was one of the dads and he'd been
playing tennis and there was supposed to be a tennis tournament
on the Friday and I think they were, they were trying to get
teams together and he'd been talking to Jez about the tennis
tournament, erm so he'd, yeah stopped and chatted to him on the
road and he mentioned that when he got back to the table, erm
and then shortly after he got back, Jane got back, erm we had
our starters and, and then about twenty five past nine, or half
past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think
I said I'd go and check on Grace and Matt said he'd go and then
Russell said that he'd go and check on Evie and Ella as well at
the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean,
Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do
you want us to do it, we're going up there anyway so, erm she
said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to
go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back
about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything
was okay, erm he'd been in and had a look at Grace, erm Russell
wasn't with him, erm he told Jane that Evie had been sick and so
Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well
I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and
Kates and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you
that, its just, you know, its not really, I mean its''
1578 'Its not your evidence, its what he's told you'.
Reply 'Its not my evidence yes, yeah, you know its about what
we've all talked about as a group, erm'.
1578 'Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in
Reply 'Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to
call at Gerry and Kates on the way but for some reason didnt,
they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment,
Matt went into ours, checked on Grace, erm came out, went back
to get Russell, thats when he discovered that Evie had been
sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round
through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps
into Gerry and Kates apartment, through the patio door, erm
noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide
open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which'.
01.13.22 1578 'Which door''
Reply 'The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and
Madeleines bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said
he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be
shut, cos I mean we always shut Graces bedroom door, erm or at
least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some
people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he
didnt expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he
said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he
could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no
sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didnt
put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed,
but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head,
well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw
there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all
in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in
together, erm but he didnt actually look to see whether
Madeleine was there or not'.
1578 'He didnt open the door''
Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.
Reply 'Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing
sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots
with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know
ordinarily we wouldn't, we only really went to see, to look,
actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and
I'd been sick and she'd sort of seemed to have had an upset
stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was
quiet, we wouldn't open the door really, you know just they're
quiet, they're not you know, as long as they're not crying
thats, or dont seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave
them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out,
shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and
said everything was okay, erm and then and then our main courses
arrived and we ate those and Russell was still up with Evie, so
Jane ate her dinner and then she went up to relieve Russell,
which is like our standing joke of the holiday, erm and so
Russell came back and he'd ordered steak or something but they
couldn't do another one and brought him his food, we'd all
finished I think, erm so he was eating his dinner and Kate said
that she you know was, must have been about five to ten then or
ten o'clock, so Kate said you know, she'd go up and check, do
her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and
shouting Madeleines gone you know, and then we all just leapt up
from the table and went up to her, followed her and Gerry, erm
up to their apartment and erm and I remember sort of standing at
the bottom of the steps, I didnt go into the apartment, standing
at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors and I think Matt
and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, erm and
then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on
Grace, erm and she was there, erm and then Matt sort of went
back and I think he went off to sort of look a bit more and
search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main
reception of the Ocean Club, erm and I just stayed near our
apartment really and Jane was, she didn't know what happened,
she was looking after Evie, so I went to tell Jane what had
happened, erm I think it must have been, must have been after we
checked on Grace or sort of, after we checked on Grace and come
out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window,
like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate
had said you know, somebodys taken her, cos the shutter was up
and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we
kind of realised that she'd been taken, erm as, you know, as
opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just
wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then
going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk
to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and
the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane
said to me that when she'd come back to do her check, erm she'd
seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top
of the T junction, as she, as she'd been walking up from the,
from the Ocean Club, they'd been walking across the top of the
road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not
could have been anyone but still sure it couldn't have been
Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she
left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to
Jez in the road, erm and so we, you know we had this discussion
between ourselves, oh you know, it couldn't have been Madeleine
because you know Gerry had only just checked and he was standing
in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely
somebody couldn't have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had
literally just come out of the apartment, erm and we kind of you
know battered that idea back and forward between us for you
know, a couple of minutes, erm but you know, anyway'.
01.19.48 1578 'So what time did Jane tell you this''
Reply 'It must have been about, erm ten past ten or something,
quarter past ten I guess'.
1578 'And whereabouts did she tell you''
Reply 'We were just outside her apartment but there was like a
space between the apartments, erm sort of courtyard-y bit'.
1578 'From the car park entrance or the pool side''
Reply 'Yeah, no the car park entrance'.
1578 'And who was present when she was telling you this''
Reply 'No just me, just me, cos erm Fi was with Kate and, and
Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys
were sort of, had started to look around and started to, Matt
had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to
phone the Police'.
1578 'What was Janes demeanour when she was telling you this''
Reply 'Erm she was quite shocked, well we were kind of bit
puzzled, cos we thought well you know, could it really have been
cos Gerry had just been in, erm but it was a bit of a sort of
Jane was like, everybody gob smacked really that you know, she
could well have seen Madeleine, erm but we did, you know we, we
didn't have this discussion about whether it could have been
just because of the sort of time of Gerry going in and him
standing outside talking to Jez and you know, it would have
been, somebody would have had to you know, sort of be very
quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we
didn't talk about that at that time but, you know afterwards,
erm obviously that was, I think we kept, yeah I mean we
basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to
have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check'.
01.21.46 1578 'Okay'.
Reply 'So anyway Jane and I you know talked about that and, and
then I can't remember whether she told, I think she told Fiona
then, erm I mean basically you know as soon as the Police
arrived, she told, she told the Police'.
1578 'When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you
1578 'To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn't go into
Reply 'Yeah didn't go in'.
1578 'Who were you with at that point''
Reply 'Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably
at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn't
really run very fast, remember that'.
1578 'And then''
Reply 'I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and
Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and
Kates apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm
and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden
and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure'.
1578 'And then shortly after yourself and Matt''
1578 'Went round'.
Reply 'Went round'.
1578 'To your apartment''
1578 'How soon after''
Reply 'Well literally like you know a minute, was sort of a
minute, no more than that'.
1578 'And you've, you've walked past the front or car park side
of the apartments''
Reply 'Well yeah, you, well you go through the car park, you go
up the road and turn left and then kind of cut in through the
car park and then to get to our apartment, erm you go down a
ramp and there was that courtyard area, I could draw it
Reply 'Erm because'.
1578 'There is, there's a number of sketches that I'd like you
Reply 'Yeah okay'.
1578 'We'll come on to this, as you're walking across'.
1578 'Across the car park to your apartment, you've obviously,
I dare say got Grace on your mind haven't you''
1578 'Did either of you at that point look across to the
shutters and window of Gerrys apartment''
Reply 'No, no, we didn't know at that time that they were kind
of up and the window was open and the sort of view you get as
you're walking across the car, you walk across the car park
there's a diagonal to get to the sort of ramp that goes down
into the apartments, so Gerry and Kates you know shutters were
here, erm that you kind of come into the car park and walk that
way, so I don't remember looking there at all, it was just like
you know, get to our apartment and make sure that Grace is
01.24.36 1578 'So on the route that you walked to your
1578 'Would there be anything in the way, preventing you from
seeing the shutters, or would you have had a direct line of
sight of the shutters''
Reply 'We would of, well if you'd kind of, if you turned to
look that way, you'd have had direct line of sight of the, for
the shutters but we were walking that way, so and I think you
know, didn't really look round, I mean there might have been a
car parked there I don't know but I don't think there was, cos
the car park was at this level and then there was a wall, erm
and you know it was quite a big drop, maybe sort of about, like
a four or five foot drop down from the car park onto the path
that ran in front of the, Madeleines bedroom and, and the
bedroom that we were in'.
Reply 'So it was kind of down in a, I mean you know the
shutters were there, at probably a car park level but you know
there, there was quite a big drop off the car park'.
Reply 'Onto that path'.
1578 'So lets just continue then, you spoke about the
conversation you had with Jane''
1578 'What happened next''
Reply 'Erm, erm it was just sort of you know, chaos really, erm
Matt went down to call the Police, erm I mean people just, I
mean you know Russell and Dave kind of went off and looked just
around the roads'.
1578 'What did you do''
Reply 'I basically just hung near our apartment, I didn't want
to leave Grace, erm I mean she was'.
01.26.28 1578 'Did you have Grace with you''
Reply 'No, no she was asleep and I didn't, you know I didn't
want to leave the apartment by itself'.
Reply 'Erm and Jane you know had Evie because she'd been sick,
so she was sort of standing by the door, so I sort of you know,
I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I'd go
back and check on Grace, erm at one point, probably not that
long after, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I
looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors
of the block that we were in, erm and that was really the, that
was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I
think they were five floors or something'.
1578 'And that was just you and''
Reply 'And Gerry'.
1578 'And what time was this''
Reply 'Erm I mean that would have been you know about half ten
or something like that, erm and then'.
1578 'What was Gerry saying''
Reply 'Erm I don't know, I don't remember, erm no I don't
remember in particular, erm'.
1578 'And how long did you spend doing that search''
Reply 'It was just really a quick you know, it would have been
about five minutes, it was just up the flights and along the,
you know the sort of verandas in front of the apartments, erm
but there wasn't really anywhere you know, somebody could hide,
well you know, if Madeleine had sort of wandered by herself, erm
you know there were just really open corridors that we were just
kind of looking to see if there was anything down there, erm'.
1578 'Then what did you do''
Reply 'And then I went back downstairs and really just sort of
stood by Jane and we were just waiting for the Police to come,
erm which you know took ages, I remember ringing Matt at least
once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where
are they, erm and I think at one point he did come back up again
and the Police still hadn't arrived and I think Gerrys told him
to go back down and ring them again, erm and then, I you know,
didn't really see him much or at all, I think they went off
searching sort of down at the beach and around the village, erm
and I just stayed up with Jane and you know, kind of checked on
Grace every five minutes, just, even though I could see the
front door, there was lot of panic situation'.
1578 'Did you, did you see the Police arrive''
Reply 'Erm yeah I mean not to kind of erm, I mean I was aware
that they'd arrived, I couldn't say whether, you know that I
saw, they didn't kind of come and park in the erm car park, I
was aware that they'd arrived, erm'.
1578 'What time was that then, where are we up to now''
Reply 'Erm I think it was probably about half eleven, quarter
to twelve, I mean they took a good hour or more than an hour to,
to arrive, erm I think they arrived erm just before midnight
that sort of time and it was uniformed GNR, uniformed guys, erm
you know I think they went to Gerry and Kate first of all and
then erm, and then I remember them coming, I mean obviously Jane
wanted to tell them about seeing this person carrying a child,
erm and by that time there were lots of people milling around,
nannies and lots of Mark WARNER staff and people from the
village, erm I mean I think that the Police went to see Gerry
and Kate and then were kind of you know, wandering through and
we were in that courtyard area and I think Jane got, I looked
after Evie and Jane went off and told, I remember there was a,
you know, but I don't know whether he was kind of the head guy
or, but he may be a bit more senior, he had a blue uniform on I
think, long boots, erm and Jane went off and told him about
seeing somebody carrying a child away, or carrying a child so
erm and I held on to Evie while she did that, then she came
back, erm and then it was either shortly, I think it was, I
don't know whether it was before that, it was either before
that, or maybe it was at that time, maybe it was while Jane no,
erm because at some stage pretty much, I think it was round
about the time when the Police had arrived that, because
obviously they couldn't really speak English, erm they turned up
with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for
Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something
like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert
MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English
but he spoke Portuguese and'.
01.32.59 1578 'What time is it now''
Reply 'I think that was about, it was about midnight, half past
twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I
think they'd been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our
way, think it was about half twelve, erm and yeah MURAT
introduced, well you know he said, hi I'm Robert and I speak
Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, erm and
introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well
with the Ocean Club, introduced herself and erm I don't really,
particularly remember talking to the Police, erm but yeah, they,
they were there basically and that was about half past twelve,
erm and erm I don't, I don't know where Jane was then, she
wasn't around, I mean she might have just been back inside the
apartment, this is out in the, that courtyard area, erm and I
think Russell came up then as well, erm and you know we were
just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the
Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other
people sort of hanging around and looking and you know wondering
what was going on, erm but Russell was there as well, erm and
then the Police just sort of moved on, erm, erm you see and I
think at that time, Russell got Robert MURATS mobile phone
number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day but I
don't know, I thought it was then that night, cos he thought it
might be quite useful as he could speak, you know cos he could
speak English and Portuguese'.
1578 'Well what did you witness in respect of that''
Reply 'Well I think at that time Russell got his number and put
it into his phone, erm'.
1578 'Is that what you saw''
Reply 'Yeah, but cos its almost a year ago now, I mean you
know, Robert MURAT was definitely there, I'm absolutely a
hundred per cent certain about that, erm and I think, and I
think at the time also and I think it would be in my Portuguese
statement, that Robert MURAT gave Russell his mobile phone
number then at that time as well, erm although since times
passed and Russell kind of says oh he thinks that might have
been the next morning, I kind of half think well it might have
been the next morning but I think at the time I certainly
thought and I'm sure its in my Portuguese statement that MURAT
gave Russell the phone number that night, erm, but yeah I mean,
you know he was definitely there, irrespective of whether he
gave the mobile phone number or not, you know I've absolutely no
doubt that he was there, erm and, and then you know, we were
just like you know, I just basically stayed in the same spot
pretty much and checked on Grace and talked to Jane and erm you
know, just lots of people milling around and people going off
searching and shouting Madeleine and erm, and then you know we
decided at one, you know at some point that we should go to bed
and I think that might have been at about, about three in the
morning perhaps, not sure though, I mean it could be, could have
been, could have been much later, I don't think it was much
earlier than that though'.
01.37.08 1578 'Okay, that's about it'.
Reply 'Yeah I think from that night, erm'.
1578 'Do you remember the clothing that you wore that evening
down at the Tapas Bar''
Reply 'Erm yeah, I had white trousers on and some high heeled
sandals which I then changed into trainers after, you know when
we went back to check on Grace after we discovered that
Madeleine had gone, erm and I mean I know I would have had my
fleece and my denim jacket on because it was freezing sitting
outside, you know and maybe a T-shirt and a jumper as well'.
Reply 'Erm well denim jacket, sort of jean denim, erm black
fleece, which I would have had under my jacket, yeah so that's
probably all you'd have seen of me from the outside, I think I,
I might have had a red and white striped jumper on underneath
that and maybe just a vest top'.
01.38.17 1578 'What about when you were eating at the table''
Reply 'Yeah I had all that on as well, it was really cold in
the evenings, you didn't take'.
1578 'Chilly evening'.
Reply 'Didn't take enough warm things, so it was like the, all
the jumpers that we had yeah'.
1578 'Okay. Do you remember what Matt was wearing''
Reply 'Erm he didn't take many clothes either, he had erm, I
mean I know over the top of everything, he would have had erm a
sort of a windproof-y its not a fleece but that type of thing,
which is like a grey colour and his, think it's Eider, Eider
make, erm and I think black linen trousers I think, I don't
think, or did he take jeans, he either had jeans on or black
linen trousers and that top and he probably would have had a
shirt underneath that, or you know, or a T-shirt, erm and I
think you know maybe trainers on his feet, cos it was a bit cold
for anything else really'.
1578 'Okay. Would you just sketch for me please the Tapas Bar
and table and the layout'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm, erm okay, so that was our table, erm sort of
here was about the inside of the bar must have been there and
then when we arrived, Steve and his wife were sitting at the
table here and then here there was like a big plastic sheet,
1578 'And where's the apartment block''
Reply 'And then there's the pool here and then the apartments
Reply 'And that's Gerry and Kates and ours and then that, and
then that, that must have been Janes there and Dave and Fi
1578 'Now this plastic sheet'.
1578 'What position was that in when you were eating on that
Reply 'Think it was down'.
1578 'And what's its construction, can you see through it or''
1578 'Just a window or''
Reply 'No its a clear plastic, you know sort of quite thick but
you could see through it'.
01.40.57 1578 'Okay'.
1578 'So here's the table where you all sat'.
1578 'The nine of you, do you know who sat where''
Reply 'I was trying to remember this but I mean, I sat here,
erm I think I was in between Jane and Russell, erm and then,
Kate was there, erm there's Russell and then I think, then Matt
next door so, erm I think it was erm Dave was sort of here and
Gerry was here, Dave, only Diane then and Matt and then Fiona
there. I think yeah'.
1578 'Thats the best of your recollection''
Reply 'Yeah, well I know I was definitely sitting here, I'm
absolutely certain about that, erm and I think I was in between
Russell and Jane because the starter that they had was a shared
one and they kind of, you know, shared it across me, erm and
yeah and I think Kate was on, certainly on this side, cos I
remember her getting up to say she was going to check and then
Matt and Russell saying you know, do you want us, us to go, erm
and we'd had that conversation at the beginning of dinner about,
we kept saying I hope they'll be okay cos I think last night
they were crying and they said you know, when we were crying,
erm yeah and I think and Fi was definitely over here somewhere,
think she must have been next to Kate, erm and I think, I think
Diane was in, she was either in between Dave and Matt or, or
Dave and Russell, I mean Matt might have been down there maybe,
erm Dave might have been the other way round, I'm not sure
there, couldn't say for definite'.
01.44.06 1578 'Let's put a little question mark against there'.
Reply 'Mmm. Otherwise I think, well you know, I was definitely
here I know that and I'm pretty certain about the, these four'.
1578 'Okay, if you're happy with those then, if you underline
Reply 'Yeah, erm, erm I think the rest, I think thats about
right, its maybe this bit here that I'm not quite sure about'.
1578 'And from where you were sat, what was your view like of
Reply 'Erm well yeah I could see, I mean I could see the patio
doors of ours and Gerry and Kates'.
1578 'How much of the patio doors''
Reply 'Erm well kind of the top half really'.
Reply "Yeah you know, I didn't get a full you know, you
couldn't get a full view sort of right in, cos there were
bushes, there were bushes and stuff there, erm'.
1578 'Was there any point during the meal that evening when
you, when you consciously looked over at the patio doors, just
from a security conscious point of view''
Reply 'Mmm, erm I might have done but, I mean I probably did
look up now and then, just to kind of, I mean not, you know I
didn't specifically think oh I've got to look every now and then
to make sure the, you know, I could still everything, erm I mean
I'm sure I did look up and see, and see the door, you know see
the patio doors, just because, you know you kind of feel
comforted don't you if you can see, erm you know if you can see
1578 'Of course you were safe in the knowledge that yours was
Reply 'Yes I mean if they're unlocked, I don't know whether I'd
have looked up any more, I suppose maybe I would have done, I
don't know, I mean that's yeah, I mean ours were locked so'.
01.46.38 1578 'Do you want to just mark that up with, with your
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'RMJM, we'll call that 100/100, R M J M100 yes''
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
Reply 'I did do a table drawing at the time when I was
interviewed in Portugal'.
1578 'Oh did you''
1578 'Oh sorry, I wasn't aware of that okay. This is the plan
of the Resort'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'And the Tapas Bar is over here''
1578 'Which route would you have taken when you went to check
on the apartments''
Reply 'Erm, there was a path down here, right here, then up the
road (inaudible) and then in here and then the kind of, the
entrance to the, to the apartments is sort of here, with a
little ramp down, so that'.
Reply 'And then (inaudible) our apartment was about, sort of
here, the door, cos the door to Gerry and Kates was kind of on
the front, the door to ours was on the side'.
1578 'I think that, that may be'.
Reply 'Is that supposed to be''
1578 'One apartment'.
Reply 'Right okay'.
01.48.26 1578 'So you would have been next door wouldn't you''
Reply 'Yep, that looks a bit big to be one, I think it would
have been about, would have been a lot in that block'.
1578 'Would there''
Reply 'Yeah. Erm cos there was this little alleyway between
these two blocks and erm there would have been probably about,
maybe about eight across here'.
Reply 'Erm but yeah the door to our apartment was sort of on
the side here'.
1578 'Lets get the, another piece of paper, if you want to
expand on that view'.
1578 'Just a larger scale if you like'.
Reply 'So yeah, erm, sort of Gerry and Kates apartment is sort
of like that, and ours was like this, then came down, my front
door was sort of here, their front door was there, erm and then
across here there's erm the door to apartment C was here,
(inaudible) went across a bit more and the door to apartment D
which was Russell and Janes was there, then it went out again,
then that, so this is that sort of courtyard-y bit and then this
is the wall here'.
Reply 'This is the (inaudible) down, this is the car park, erm
and, and there's, there was a lift here, a lift and stairs up to
the next floor, erm and then there was a ramp that sort of came
round here from the car park bit, erm and then this side, what's
that by the steps, the side of the steps, and there's steps down
here, (inaudible) yeah that's the car park, then the road was up
here, there's an entrance into the car park as well er, that's
okay (inaudible) about that, down the steps and then to our
1578 'This is when you went to check on Grace''
1578 'So how close would you have been to the shutters''
Reply 'Erm, thats the door, there were shutters, think they
only had one set of shutters in their room and we had two sets
(inaudible), erm well I mean not particularly close, erm and
sort of walk this way, so erm it would probably be, erm about
Reply 'That would be about right, erm yeah, I mean certainly
from here to the shutters would be, so yeah you know when you're
getting kind of, I mean the closest you would be, I suppose
would be when you're about here and that would probably be
about, erm be like fifteen feet away or something like that,
twenty feet in length'.
01.54.01 1578 'Are there any street lamps in this car park
Reply 'No, there were street lamps on the road, I think there
were street lamps on this street, which is where you come up,
but erm and you know a couple of street lamps probably along
this road, but the, the car park wasn't, I don't think was lit,
there were, there were lights in here and then when you actually
got in here, there were extra lights to put on, erm and I don't
think there were any lights in the car park'.
1578 'Whereabouts did you have a chat with Jane when she told
you about the man and child''
Reply 'Erm just here'.
1578 'Do you want to mark that sort of position, Rachael and
Jane okay. So if we call this RMJM101, that 102. We're getting
quite close to the end of, of this tape now'.
1578 'So its probably a good point to conclude this interview'.
1578 'We'll have a break'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'And continue in a short while'.
1578 'Probably have some lunch actually'.
01.55.52 1578 'Okay, the time is twelve nineteen and this
interview is ceasing'.
Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police
Headquarters – part II/III
00.00.06 1578 'Okay the time is one forty seven pm and thats
on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight.
We're in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force
Headquarters. I'm DC 1578 Andrew GIERC of the Leicestershire
Major Crime Unit. Would you give me your full name and date of
Reply 'Er Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY, eleventh of the
1578 'Thank you very much. This is the second interview of
today Rachael and we've discussed over the first interview, the
build up to the holiday, the association of the group and you've
then taken us through a summary of daily routines, upon arrival
at the Resort and we've gone into some detail in respect of the
activities on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven,
the day of course that Madeleine disappeared'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'I have a list of questions here from the Portuguese
Authorities that I'd like to go through with you. Firstly, could
you clarify to me please your mobile phone number''
Reply 'Yeah ........
'And is that the number you had in Praia''
Reply 'Yes, mm yeah'.
00.01.45 1578 'Okay. Do you know who the user is of a mobile
Reply 'No, ......
1578 'No, you've just says ... could it have been a Portuguese
Reply 'Erm, just say it again''
Reply 'No, no idea, I mean I've got my phone, I could look'.
1578 'Okay, do you have it with you''
Reply 'I do yeah but, is there any way'.
1578 'This phone number'.
Reply 'Yeah, is it a number that I rang''
1578 'Called yourself'.
1578 'At twenty two thirty six twenty five hours on the fourth
of the fifth, so on the Friday'.
Reply 'On Friday'.
1578 'Just after ten thirty in the evening'.
Reply 'Erm, erm okay well let me just have a look at my mums
number, oh thats, that ends in ..., thats not right is it, erm
7, what did it end in again''
1578 'It ends in 3319'.
Reply '...., erm, erm did you say it called me, or I called
1578 'That number called your mobile'.
Reply 'Ten thirty, (inaudible), well I don't know, the only
people that, well I think the only people I spoke to, I know
that a client did ring me one of the days but it wouldn't have
been ten thirty at night, erm it was either that Friday or the
following Friday to cancel an interview that was happening but I
mean that wouldn't have been at ten thirty at night, erm I would
think, I mean I suppose it could, it might have been a
Journalist, because on the night that Madeleine disappeared, on
the Thursday, a friend of mine, or friends of Matts and mine,
Kath and James LANDALE and James LANDALE's a BBC News erm and at
the time he was like Political Correspondent, erm I saw him the
other night actually reading the news on BBC News 24 but I rang
him, or I rang his wife Kath cos I had her mobile number, erm
basically to say you know that Madeleine had gone missing, was
there any way that we could get it on the news and that was,
that was on the Thursday night, so I suppose and it was the loc,
it was the, was it the Local Elections or something happening
00.05.56 1578 'I dont know'.
Reply 'There were some sort of Elections, must have been Local
Elections and James was out, away reporting on that but anyway
Kath put me in touch with him and I spoke to him and I spoke to
a couple of people on the BBC News 24 desk, so I mean you know,
1578 'That was on the Thursday evening''
Reply 'That was on the Thursday night'.
1578 'What time would that have been''
Reply 'Well that was sort of you know, midnight after midnight
1578 'And this was just after ten thirty pm, twenty two thirty
Reply 'On the thir, but that was on the fourth''
1578 'Yes sorry you're correct on the fourth, Friday so'.
Reply 'Yeah, I mean it could have been somebody calling I
suppose in relation to that possibly, erm but otherwise, I mean
I only really spoke to you know, sort of my mum and sort of you
know, close friends and family, erm and then you know, well
Kath, Kath, James' wife and then James rang me and I think I
rang him back and then a couple of people from the BBC News 24
rang, but that was the Thursday night'.
00.07.10 1578 'Okay'.
Reply 'Erm and actually I do remember actually, on the Friday,
my phone went a lot with lots of different BBC people ringing at
various times, so that could have gone on until the evening'.
1578 'Alright then, we move on. Who is the user of phone number
Reply '... erm'.
1578 'There are a number of text exchanges between you and that
person both ways'.
1578 'On the second of the fifth and also fourth of the fifth,
one, two, three, four, five, there were six messages, exchanges
on the second'.
Reply 'Okay right'.
1578 'And five exchanges on the fourth'.
1578 'It ends ....'.
Reply '...., I think, I don't (inaudible), .... my mum'.
1578 'So the next question is what kind of relationship is
there between you and that person''
Reply 'It's my mother'.
1578 'Do you recall the nature of those messages''
Reply 'No, I mean it would be having a nice time, you know that
kind of thing, certainly on the second anyway, not the fourth,
erm no, no just we were telling her what we'd been up to or
telling her what the weather was like, something like that,
00.10.11 1578 'Okay'.
Reply 'And then'.
1578 'What's, what's your mums name''
Reply 'Barbara MAMPILLY'.
1578 'Barbara MAMPILLY''
1578 'What address does Barbara live''
Reply 'In Wales'.
1578 'Do you know the address''
Reply 'Yep, erm ..........
1578 'Thank you'.
Reply 'Mmm yeah I mean on the fourth it would be obviously
telling her about Madeleine and thats the sort, I mean she rang
me in the morning, I remember that, cos she'd heard it on the
radio, she heard it on the eight o'clock news I think so and
1578 'So we go on to the next one'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
Reply '...., when did I call them or''
1578 'They sent you a text message at eleven thirty three hours
on the third, 1103 hours on the fourth and then they phoned you
at twelve thirty two on the fourth'.
Reply 'Okay, erm so what did the number end in again''
1578 '..., and again the same questions, what's the nature of
your relationship and the nature of the calls''
Reply '...., that's my sister, Ruth MAMPILLY'.
Reply 'Yeah ....'.
1578 '.... Sorry, what's her name''
Reply 'Ruth MAM, MAMPILLY yeah'.
1578 'Ruth MAMPILLY. Whereabouts does Ruth live''
Reply 'She lives in Cardiff, erm her address is
........................ erm , which is not sure what the post
code is, it might be .... or something but I'm not sure'.
01.12.58 1578 'Okay, and who does Ruth live with''
Reply 'Erm her fianc' Mark SUTTON'.
1578 'Okay, and again do you recall the, the nature of the
texts and call''
Reply 'No, so text her on that, well she, well one of us texted
that night on the third did we''
1578 'She sent you a text at eleven thirty three am'.
Reply 'Oh am okay'.
1578 'On the third'.
1578 'She sent you another text, 1103 am on the fourth and then
she called you at twelve thirty two'.
Reply 'Okay, I mean on the third in the day, that morning text,
is probably just you know, having, you know having a good time,
something like that, erm and I mean on the fourth it would, she
would have been ringing, er texting and then ringing to just you
know see if we're alright really and see what was happening, erm
and she would, she'd again, she, well she would have spoken to
my mum I expect and then you know heard about it on the news
00.14.24 1578 'Okay. The next one is ......'.
Reply 'Mmm ...., erm ... did it end in''
1578 '.... yes'.
Reply 'Yeah that was Kath LANDALE, James LANDALES wife, I used
to work with Kath, that's how we know them, she was a Solicitor
and so was I, erm'.
1578 'Whereabouts does Kath live''
Reply 'Erm in Hampshire'.
1578 'Do you know the address''
Reply 'Erm you know it's something like, erm
something............... mmm I mean no, not really'.
1578 'No, don't worry. So again the relationship between you,
is that you used to work together''
Reply 'I used to, yeah Kath and I used to work together and erm
her husband James is a BBC Political Correspondent'.
1578 'The contact between yourself and, and Kath'.
1578 'Was all on the fourth, starting at one forty two in the
1578 'Where you called her number'.
1578 'She called you back at one fifty eight'.
Reply 'Mmm yeah'.
1578 'For about, well nearly seven minutes and she called you
back again two twenty two am'.
Reply 'Right, I mean I called her initially to, cos I didn't
have their home number, I just had Kath's mobile, so to try and
get hold of James and then she said yeah, he, he wasn't at home
cos of the Elections, so she said she'd get in touch with him
and then call me back, or somebody would call me back, so she
called me back and I think I remember then giving her details of
where we were and you know how old Madeleine was and that sort
of thing and then I think she passed that on again to, to James,
erm and then obviously, then must have rang me back then and
just said, I think maybe on her last phone call she might have
rung me back and said somebody from News 24 would call me, erm
or, or that James would call me or something, cos I did speak to
James on the night as well I think, erm but I spoke I think a
few times to some, to somebody from the BBC News 24, erm so
00.18.30 1578 'On Kath's phone''
Reply 'No, no, they'.
1578 'They called you back''
Reply 'Yeah they would have been, I mean they would have either
have been London numbers or erm, or mobile numbers I guess'.
1578 'There's a total of nine contacts between yourself and
Katherine's mobile one way or the other'.
Reply 'Oh right'.
1578 'Between one forty two am on the fourth'.
1578 'And twelve thirty nine pm on the fourth'.
Reply 'Right, well that would have just been between me and
Kath and just probably her just finding out what was happening'.
1578 'Just giving'.
Reply 'And if anyone had contacted us and I think'.
1578 'The last one, two, three, four, five, the last six
contacts were text messages'.
Reply 'Mmm right'.
00.19.27 1578 'Either way, I don't suppose you'd still have
those text messages on your phone''
Reply 'No, no sorry I'm a bit, anything like that and I get rid
of everything, erm, actually I didn't, I should have brought
with me, I've got lots of scraps of paper from that, you know
from the third onwards of different numbers that I took from
people from the BBC and newspapers and stuff like that, people
who'd rung me and then email addresses and all that sort of
thing, I didn't bring any of those with me, cos basically as
soon as I'd rung Kath and you know somebody from News 24 rang me
back at some stage for the, basically from then on, my number
seemed to obviously have gone everywhere and had loads of
reporters ringing newspapers and'.
Reply 'And I've got various numbers written down on bits of
1578 'Okay the next number it's rather an odd number'.
1578 'It's, it starts as they all do, it starts with ..'.
1578 'But for simplicity when I've been asking you about
1578 'I've taken the .. off and added a zero'.
1578 'This full number is ..'.
1578 '........... and you received a call from them at zero two
thirty three on the fourth of the fifth, so half two in the
morning on the fourth'.
Reply 'Morning, I should imagine that would have been somebody
from the BBC I expect, erm, can I write that, can I write it
down just so I can see it''
00.21.58 1578 'Yes'.
Reply 'Erm got a bit of paper, thanks so'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 ................. and that was timed at two thirty three
twenty eight, two thirty three twenty eight seconds'.
1578 'On the fourth of the fifth'.
Reply 'Yeah, that's a funny number, erm'.
1578 'And again the same questions, what's the relationship
between you and that person and what was the nature of the
Reply 'Mmm, I mean I don't recognise the number and I can only
look in my, I can't, do you know how to look at just numbers in
here, erm, erm unless it was like you know the Consulate or
something but otherwise (inaudible), erm ... no, I mean I've got
Bill HENSON's number who was the, was either Consulate or the
Ambassador, it's not that number but that's got as many numbers
in, so it could either have been the, you know like the British
Embassy in Portugal, or it would be somebody from the BBC,
otherwise I think'.
1578 'Okay. Right the next number
1578 'And you contacted that number once on the second at nine
fifty seven am and twice on the fourth, eight ten am and twelve
thirty four pm'.
Reply 'Erm, erm'.
Reply 'Got no idea'.
00.26.03 1578 'Would it help if I''
Reply '(Inaudible) me to ring somebody on the second and it
would, would have said it was, you know, it might have been a
work related thing and then I wouldn't, I don't think I'd have
been ringing anyone at sort of ten past eight on Friday, erm'.
1578 'Would it help if I suggest that it could be a customer
service number of some sort, what Network are you on''
Reply 'Erm I'm on Orange but I think I might have been on
Vodafone then (inaudible)'.
1578 'So could it be a message retrieval system or something''
Reply 'Oh yeah, voicemail, (inaudible)......... voicemail'.
1578 'So does that indicate that someone's left you a message
and you've picked the message up''
Reply 'Yes and that's picking it up yes, yeah'.
1578 'Again can you recall the nature of the message''
Reply 'No, no, on the, on the second you know it would either
have be my mum, my sister, it might have been somebody at work
leaving me a message, you know, I mean nobody, it wouldn't have
been anyone import, well you know not, you know, I don't, any
really on holiday I will speak to kind of my mum and my sister,
erm and yeah I suppose work might be the other thing, picking up
a message from somebody at work probably, I mean on holiday I
had my phone switched off in the day and I just check it for
messages in the evening, or you know when we came back at lunch
or something like that perhaps'.
Reply 'I didn't, I didn't take it round with me or anything
until after the third'.
1578 'Okay, that's in respect of phone enquiries'.
Reply 'Mmm mmm okay'.
1578 'We now move on to general questions from the PJ. Did you
leave Praia Da Luz on the night Madeleine went missing''
00.29.37 1578 'So you didn't go out of Praia''
1578 'You didn't meet anyone''
Reply 'Other than'.
1578 'Out of Praia, only the people that we've discussed''
Reply 'Yeah, no didn't meet anyone else'.
1578 'Did you use any means of transportation''
1578 'Did you at any time leave the doors open in your Ocean
Reply 'On that night, or do you mean''
1578 'It says at any time, so I suppose we'd better cover the
Reply 'Erm, yeah I mean, well not open, we left the patio door
unlocked occasionally if we were just popping out to the pool
and nipping out the back doors, erm the patio doors was the
easiest way if we were all going out and there was, there was
nothing really in the apartment to steal, erm but otherwise they
were locked all the time'.
1578 'Did you at any time leave the windows open in your Ocean
Reply 'No, erm I mean the bedroom windows and shutters were
down, the shutters were down the whole time and the windows were
shut, I mean we didn't even open the shutters in the bedroom and
then really the only other window to open was the patio doors,
which you know were obviously open when we were in the
apartment, erm you know cos we sat outside on the balcony quite
1578 'Okay. In the days before Madeleine went missing, did you
at any time check on your children, if so, how often''
Reply 'Erm yes I mean when we were at dinner, that was what we
did in the evenings was have dinner and check on the children,
well I mean we only, until the Thursday, we only checked on her
own children, so Matt and I just checked on Grace and that would
of you know, every sort of twenty to thirty minutes, erm while
we were having dinner'.
1578 'On the Thursday night''
Reply 'No on, on, on the other nights'.
1578 'On the other nights sorry'.
Reply 'And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly
differently and there was much more movement and much more
checking than there had been on other nights for some strange
reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that's the
way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each
family had only checked on their own children, erm whereas on
the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt when and checked on Sean,
Amelie and Madeleine, erm you know and that hadn't happened
Reply 'But the only time we needed to check was you know when
we were having dinner cos that, that was the only time that you
know Grace was left by herself, when she's having her lunch time
naps you know, we just sat on the balcony, we didn't check, you
know we didn't check then that she was in the room, I mean you
know, erm and otherwise she was in cr'he or we was at erm'.
1578 'Okay. We have now a list of questions from Gerry and
Kate, some of these are possibly duplicated'.
Reply 'Yeah okay. Is that all the questions from the Portuguese
1578 'For the moment'.
1578 'How long have you known Gerald and Kate and what sort of
relationship is there between you and the couple''
Reply 'Erm I first met them at Dave and Fiona's wedding in
Italy in September, two thousand and three and we shared an
apartment there, erm for sort of the three or four days that we
were there for the wedding, erm and then erm I mean Matt knew
Gerald, er knew Gerry already from work, erm but I mean, you
know we weren't sort of really close friends with them and saw
them by ourselves, we'd only really see them if Dave and Fiona
were around, er but you know parties and that sort of thing, erm
and then the next sort of significant time that I remember
seeing them was at Dave's fortieth, erm and, and then basically
1578 'Have you ever been with Gerald and Kate at their home
with their children''
1578 'Have you spent holidays with them at any other time, if
yes can you describe the way they took care of their children in
the evening/at night''
Reply 'No we hadn't been on holiday with them before, apart you
know, apart from Portugal last year, that was the first time
we've been on holiday with Gerry and Kate'.
1578 'I'm sorry, I thought you said you said you shared an
apartment with them in Italy''
Reply 'Oh well okay yeah, well that was, I mean Madeleine was
about three months, erm and erm, I mean one, one night it was
you know, well one day it was the wedding and then the dinner in
the evening and I think, I mean Madeleine was with Kate all the
time, I mean she was breast feeding, erm the other nights, I
don't remember but I mean we ate in the apartment and erm, yeah
basically ate in the apartment and then sort of went to bed
really so, Madeleine would either have been you know, up with
us, erm or as, or asleep up in the bedroom'.
1578 'How often did you used to meet Gerry and Kate during the
holidays from the twenty eighth of April to the third of May''
Reply 'We saw them every day, erm, I mean Sean and Amelie were
in the same cr'he as Grace, so we saw them in the mornings, you
know either being dropped off or collected at midday, erm and
then you know we'd either sit by the pool together, or we'd play
tennis together, Matt and I and Gerry and Kate, one of the days,
I don't, maybe the Tuesday, erm'.
00.38.02 1578 'That was Monday and Tuesday''
Reply 'Well may, maybe the Tuesday, I'm not sure which, it was
Monday or Tuesday I think, I think it was fairly early the
beginning of the week, erm Matt and Kate went running one
afternoon, erm I mean we saw them every day and obviously at
dinner every night as well, erm well tea, when the children had
tea everyday at quarter to five at the bit by the Tapas Bar, erm
you know they were there with their children, erm so we saw them
everyday you know, a few times a day really'.
1578 'How often did you used to see their children, Madeleine,
Sean and Amelie''
Reply 'Erm well we saw all the children everyday as well, Sean
and Amelie we saw more than Madeleine because they were in cr'he
with Grace, erm and Madeleine was in cr'he and it was kind of
off, off site, it was at the main reception of the Ocean Club,
erm and, and then we'd, we'd always see them at tea time, we'd
all have tea together and then after tea we always just went to
the sort of recreation area by the tennis courts and the kids
would play on the swings and the slides and you know, you'd just
sort of chase them around and play games and stuff, so I mean
1578 'Okay. Did you feel at any time that there was a reason to
be concerned about the children''
Reply 'No, absolutely not, I mean they were really happy
children, they all played together really well, well all, all
eight of the children, erm and you know Gerry and Kate are great
parents, they're great with their kids, erm'.
1578 'I think you've already covered this one, when was the
last time you saw Madeleine''
Reply 'Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the
morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on
the morning of the third of May'.
00.41.13 1578 'At the tennis courts''
Reply 'Yes at the tennis courts'.
1578 'Any particular court''
Reply 'Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the
courts, it's the one on the left I think'.
1578 'Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children
1578 'What's that one there and what is that''
Reply 'Erm that's the, I think that's probably, well the
outside bit of the, of the cr'he overlooked the tennis courts
and so maybe that's that, that's not quite sort of accurate I
don't think that, that diagram, the cr'he was here and there's
an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there'.
1578 'Okay. When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May
Reply 'Erm well I saw Kate, I chatted to Kate by the pool, erm
in the morning'.
1578 'What time was that''
Reply 'That would have been from sort of, you know half nine,
ten o'clock onwards, we were chatting when Madeleine arrived for
the tennis lesson with the rest of the children from her group,
erm I think that was probably about ten thirty, erm and Gerry
was there then as well, I think he'd been having a lesson on the
tennis courts I think, he was having group lessons, so I think
he might have been having his lesson sort of up until then, erm
so they were both there then and then erm Matt and I had our
tennis lesson and then Jane and I, when Jane and I were having a
hit on the court when, in the afternoon, so about half two,
three o'clock when Grace was having her sleep and Evie was
asleep, erm Gerry and Kate were watching us, so we saw them then
and then we saw Kate running on the beach later on that day,
about quarter to five, five o'clock'.
00.44.16 1578 'Yes'.
Reply 'Erm and then Gerry we saw on the tennis court later on
in the evening when the boys came up to play tennis for that
social session and that was at about you know, seven'.
1578 'About seven''
Reply 'Until about twenty past seven when he went back to help
Kate put the children to bed, erm and then at the table then at
sort of twenty to nine (inaudible) a bit then, oh well Matt and
I saw them walking down to the table, sort of eight thirty eight
or something like that and then we got down to the table at just
after about twenty to nine'.
1578 'And then obviously at the table''
Reply 'Yes, erm we were all there until oh erm, well we were
actually all sitting at the table at about erm nine, five past
nine and then that's when Gerry went off and did his check,
think he was probably away about five minutes after he'd talked
to Jez as well on the way back and then erm, and then Kate left
at sort of about ten, just before ten, went up and came back,
well she was probably away about five minutes, maybe slightly
longer, I think she looked round the apartment, just to make
sure Madeleine hadn't wandered into one of the other rooms, erm
and then she was back and then, and then we all headed off then,
erm anyway then they were together I think for pretty much most
of the rest of the night, you know they were both you know,
pretty much hysterical and screaming and shouting and erm, then
I really kept out of the way just sort of checking on Grace and
talking to Jane, erm remember I was sort of avoiding being there
really, just, you know it was just awful'.
1578 'Yes, but you briefly checked the stairwells with''
Reply With Gerry yes'.
00.47.32 1578 'Gerry'.
Reply 'Mmm yeah'.
Reply 'Yeah and'.
1578 'What time did you arrive at the Tapas Restaurant on May
Reply 'Erm twenty to nine'.
1578 'Who was there already''
Reply 'Gerry and Kate and Jane and they were talking to a
couple on another table'.
1578 'Do you know who that couple was''
Reply 'Was Steve, I can't remember what his wife was called, we
played tennis with them'.
1578 'What were Kate and Gerry doing by the time you arrived''
Reply 'Well they were kind of finishing up their conversation
really with Steve and his wife, so I think we sat down and they
sat erm sort of, sort of a few seconds later or thirty seconds
1578 'Did you speak to Kate and Gerry''
Reply 'Yes, erm can't, I mean I do remember Kate saying that
she hoped the children were okay because they'd said that last
night they'd been crying and erm they kind of said her, 'Mummy,
where were you', so she sort of hoped, she hoped they were
alright, erm and then it was just general chit chat really,
think we talk, on the Friday there was supposed to be a tennis
tournament and I think we were sort of trying to get teams
together or couples together or something and you I think we
chatted a bit about that, I think we were one man short, cos I
think Matt didn't really want to play or something, erm'.
1578 'That was going to be''
Reply 'That was going to be on the Friday'.
00.50.33 1578 'Following day'.
Reply 'Erm so I think we probably talked about that a bit and
otherwise you know, just general, probably that the weather had
been a bit better that day and (inaudible) remember when the
rest of us were there, we talked about Matt falling off the boat
and Russell rescuing him and you know, it was actually quite a
dramatic story and we were like well you know, that will be the
talk of the holiday, the story of the holiday, erm so yeah that
was kind of discussed at length cos Russell felt quite a hero
and er, er I think he done quite well actually to get back and
rescue Matt, erm and I don't know what else we talked about,
just, no I mean nothing specific really just general chit chat'.
1578 'What was their behaviour like''
Reply 'Well you know the same as it had been every other night,
erm you know just happy, jolly, you know people who were having
a nice holiday, I mean there's absolutely no way that they'd, I
mean you know, they didn't do anything to Madeleine and there's
just no way that they could have done and you know, if, even if
they had, there's just no way that somebody could come and sit
at the table and just behave normally'.
1578 'Who left the table during the meal and why''
Reply 'Well Matt left first of all to go back and chivvy Dave
and Fi and Diane along, cos they hadn't arrived by about five to
nine, so he left and he said he'd just check on the rooms while,
would just listen outside the doors while, you know while he was
on his way back, erm he passed Dave and Fi and Diane as he was
going, so they arrived at the table, erm Matt, Matt carried on
and just listened outside the windows, erm he came back, erm
about five minutes later, Gerry went to check and actually go in
and look at Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, cos they'd only been at
the table I suppose then for about twenty five minutes and Matt
had only gone to listen at the windows, not to actually go in
the rooms, erm then he came back having talked to Gerry on the
way back, erm and while Gerry was still away, Jane went to check
on Ella and Evie, erm and then Gerry got back and then Jane got
back and then about fifteen minutes later, sort of about nine
twenty five, nine thirty Matt and Russell went off to check on
Grace and Ella and Evie and Kate got up to say that she was
gonna go and check as well, then Matt and Russell volunteered to
check on the twins and Madeleine instead of her going, erm so
they went, Matt came back, erm and Russell had stayed behind cos
Evie had been sick and so he stayed with her and then we ate our
food and then Jane went to take over from Russell, that was so
he could come and eat something, erm and that was probably at
about twenty to ten, I don't, not sure about that really but
erm, yeah it was about twenty to ten probably, quarter to ten
maybe, erm and they cooked fresh and then so Russell came back,
erm and they cooked him a fresh meal and as he was, as he was
eating that, Kate said she'd go and check and that would have
been about five to ten, ten o'clock, so she went off and then
came back, sort of five, ten, be about five past ten maybe and
came back saying Madeleine's gone and then we all got up from
the table and ran up to the apartment. Diane stayed at the table
actually, erm I think actually I'd taken my denim jacket off cos
I remember her bringing that up to me later on, erm but yeah
Diane stayed at the table and, and then you know, the rest, the
rest kind of, well we all went up and then (inaudible)'.
00.56.42 1578 'When, when Matthew first went to chivvy up the PAYNE's'.
1578 'What, what did he actually tell you that he was going to
do in respect of checking on the children''
Reply 'He just said he'd have a listen outside the windows, erm
cos I mean we'd only left our room about fifteen minutes ago,
fifteen minutes before that, erm and you know because the,
Madeleine and the twins were basically in the room next to
Grace, erm he just said he'd put his ear to that window as well,
erm and I can't remember whether he said he'd check on Ella and
Evie as well, I have a feeling that he didn't because Russell
had you know more or less only just sat down, erm I certainly
remember him saying he'd just listen outside our window and
Gerry and Kate's, erm when he came back, he might have said that
he'd listened outside Ella and Evie's as well but I'm not sure
about that, but he came back and said he listen, you know it was
all quiet from the outside of our windows and the outside of
Gerry and Kate's'.
00.58.01 1578 'A few moments ago on the, on the first account
that you've just given me'.
1578 'You said that he told you he was going to listen outside
Reply 'Well the windows sorry, well he, yeah I mean mmm'.
1578 'I just wanted to clarify what he actually said to you'.
Reply 'Erm, I can't remember what, I mean he said he'd just
listen outside, erm I don't know whether he said doors or
windows, but when he came back he said he'd listened outside the
windows, I mean, erm I mean you wouldn't listen outside the
front doors and he could only listen outside the bedroom doors
by going inside, so I mean, but I, I don't know what he said
exactly when he was going, but the assumption was I think that
he'd listen outside the windows and when he came back, he'd
listened outside the windows'.
1578 'He actually mentioned windows when he came back''
Reply 'Yeah I think he must have done'.
1578 'Because again you've just said, he said everything was
Reply 'Yeah I mean, erm yeah I think he you know, everything
was quiet, he'd just kind of put his ear to the shutters and'.
1578 'I'm not, I'm not trying to'.
Reply 'No I know, I'm just, no, no, no I'm just erm'.
1578 'Put you on the spot Rachael, I'm just trying to clarify
what you think he actually said to you at the time''
Reply 'I know, erm well I don't remember whether he said
everything's okay, it's all quiet, or whether he said you know,
I've listened, I've listened outside the windows and it was all
quiet, erm I think when he left the table he must have said that
he was gonna listen outside the windows and then when he came
back, he was like yeah everything's okay, it's all, it's all
quiet, but I mean you know it's nearly a year on so I can't, I
can't remember specifically, I don't know what, I can't remember
whether, I mean that might be in my statement that I gave in
01.00.58 1578 'Again I think we've covered this, did you see
Gerald leaving the table during the meal''
Reply 'Yes at sort of five past nine'.
1578 'And well what time did you see him leave the table''
Reply 'It was about five past nine I think'.
1578 'How long was he absent for''
Reply 'I don't know, it would have only been about five
minutes, seven minutes maybe, I mean I don't know but'.
1578 'And what did he say when he came back''
Reply 'Erm that he'd met Jez on the pavement, on the road and
they'd had a chat about the tennis tournament'.
1578 'Who did he say that to''
Reply 'I think just generally to the table'.
1578 'And was he behaving or acting different when he
Reply 'No was just the same cheery self'.
1578 'Did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal''
Reply 'Yes at, not that long after Gerry had got back, oh no,
no, no Gerry hadn't got back, not that, not that long after
Gerry had gone, erm so'.
1578 'What time''
Reply 'I mean maybe about ten past nine'.
1578 'About how long was she absent for''
Reply 'About five minutes, bit less maybe'.
01.03.40 1578 'Was she showing any different behaviour or
attitude when she returned''
Reply 'No, that's no, same as normal'.
1578 'Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal''
Reply 'Yeah he and Russell left together, well apart, well Matt
left by himself at about five to nine when he went to see where
Diane, Dave and Fi were and then he left again with Russell
about twenty five past nine, half past nine'.
1578 'About how long was he absent for''
Reply 'Erm the first time you know less than five minutes and
then the next time probably about five minutes, maybe about six
1578 'What did Matthew say when he came back''
Reply 'Erm when he came back the first time he said that
everything was quiet, when he came back the second time after
he'd been into Grace and then into the twins and Madeleine, erm
he just said to Kate as he got back, you know all quiet,
everything's okay, maybe it was just all quiet'.
1578 'Did you hear him say that to Kate, or is that what Kate
Reply 'Erm no I think, I mean I remember him saying you know it
was all okay, all quiet'.
1578 'And again was he behaving or acting differently when he
Reply 'No, same as normal'.
1578 'Did you see Russell leaving the table during the meal''
Reply 'Yeah he left with Matt at twenty five past nine, nine
1578 'About how long was he absent for''
Reply 'Erm it probably was about fifteen to twenty minutes, cos
Evie had been sick and he had to change the sheets on the cot
and then the pyjamas all that sort of thing and Jane had to eat
her dinner before she went up to change places with him'.
1578 'And what did Russell say when he came back''
Reply 'Erm whatever it, I think basically he just said that
Evie had been sick and erm, don't remember what else, where's
his food or something like that I expect, cos we'd all eaten
ours or were finishing off ours'.
01.07.41 1578 'Was he behaving or reacting differently''
1578 'When he returned'.
Reply 'The same as normal'.
1578 'Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal''
Reply 'Just at five to ten, ten o'clock'.
1578 'About how long was she absent''
Reply 'About five minutes, slightly longer, you know, five to
seven minutes maybe'.
1578 'And what did Kate say when she got back''
Reply 'Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone, she repeated it
twice, well she kept, I mean she didn't actually get back to the
table, she kind of was erm about three quarters of the way down
the path that came from the Reception towards the Tapas and she
shouted, 'Gerry, Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone' and then we
all got up and ran after her and back up to their apartment'.
1578 'How did she look''
Reply 'Distressed, upset, she was crying'.
1578 'What was her behaviour like''
Reply 'Well I mean she was really upset, she was erm you know,
shouting, 'Madeleine's gone' and then as we're running up the
road, you know just carried on repeating that, erm and crying,
sort of you know, kind of verging on the hysterical really'.
1578 'Were you shocked yourself by what she said''
Reply 'Yeah, I mean my, you know, my initial reaction was that
you know Madeleine must have got out of bed and you know
possibly wandered into the garden or something like that, erm
but then when, when Kate said that the shutters were up and the
window was open, erm I mean we were shocked anyway that she'd
gone, but then when the shutters were up and the windows were
open and we knew that, that was even more disturbing, erm and it
was just a really horrible feeling, erm you know the immediate
thought was that somebody had taken her, erm and then you know,
I mean as we left the table and went and was sort of following
Kate, erm the sort of anxiety was growing about you know Grace
and was she okay and was she there, erm so it was kind of a
quick stop at the bottom of the steps of their apartment and
then carrying on to make sure that Grace is alright, erm you
know and she was, erm and then it was just sort of back to and
then, and you can't describe that feeling but erm where could
Madeleine be and you know who could have taken her and erm and
just sort of erm, that that and the anxiety and that feeling
sort of helplessness and you know what we're gonna do and you
know, let's start looking, it was that sort of, you know just
general sort of you know panic and erm and you know Gerry and
Kate were you know pretty hysterical and sort of inconsolable
and screaming and shouting and erm and it was just a really
awful sort of situation, erm and you know and it's not really
01.12.35 1578 'What did you do''
Reply 'Erm well followed Kate back to their apartment, we just
sort of stood at the bottom of the steps and that you know, I
didn't really want to go in and erm and then went round to check
on Grace with Matt, erm and then once you know we'd seen her and
she was still asleep, erm Matt went off and I went to Russell
and Jane's apartment and told Jane what had happened and then
Jane told me that she'd seen somebody carrying a child away'.
1578 'Did she actually tell you that inside her apartment, or
when you were outside in the courtyard''
Reply 'No it was sort of outside in that courtyard, just sort
of outside her door though'.
1578 'Did you go into the McCANN's apartment''
1578 'Did you go into the bedroom where the children were
Reply 'Er no'.
01.14.39 1578 'Say if that's a no then you can't describe what
1578 'Did you see the twins''
1578 'And again did you notice anything unusual about them''
Reply 'No I didn't see them'.
1578 'What did you do next, did you take part in the subsequent
Reply 'I mean only just searching the steps and the other
floors with Gerry'.
1578 'Just yourself and Gerry''
1578 'And that's the only search you did''
1578 'On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first
ten minutes, how did Kate react''
Reply 'She was really upset, she was hysterical, really
distressed, crying and screaming, there's no way she could have
acted that, or anyone could have in fact, I don't think, not
even an actress'.
1578 'On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first
ten minutes, how did Gerry react''
Reply 'Very similar to Kate, it was you know screaming,
shouting, erm crying, just you know, he was very much a, you
know a father whose child had disappeared, as Kate was a mother
whose child had disappeared or wouldn't you know'.
1578 'What do you think about their behaviour considering that
Madeleine had gone missing''
Reply 'I think it was a very erm you know natural reaction, I
can't image that anyone else would act differently in that sort
of situation and that you know, I don't think it's something
that you could put on either'.
01.17.53 1578 'What did you do between ten thirty pm in the
evening and ten am the following day, who did you see''
Reply 'Erm well most of the time I spent talking to Jane and
sort of checking on Grace, erm and saw, I remember the nannies
coming up to talk to us, some of the Mark WARNER nannies and
they'd been searching and looking round the village and sort of
you know, rallying friends and people that they knew, erm I mean
we were waiting for the Police for a lot of that time cos they
didn't turn up for ages, erm and, and then when the GNR did
arrive, erm you know, they came to say hello and erm Sylvia was
there with them and so was Robert MURAT, erm there were other
people sort of milling around in the background but Sylvia
introduced herself and so did Robert MURAT, erm I mean he just
introduced himself to me as Robert and we shook hands, erm and
then sort of remember talking to somebody from I think, think
(inaudible) one of the apartments on the floor above, sort of an
older guy, kind of said oh he went missing when he was a child
for about ten days and he, and he, you know he came back again
sort of thing, well he was, I can't remember whether he said he
was taken or, it wasn't that he'd run away, I mean maybe he sort
of too young to remember or something but he said that he was
missing and he'd reappeared, erm and yeah just and then erm
after the Police arrived, erm I mean we were just you know
talking about what we should do and then I thought of ringing
James LANDALE and you know seeing if we could get it on the
news, erm and made those phone calls, erm and then the PJ
arrived, I don't know what time that was though, probably about
two-ish or something, erm and, and then I think we went to bed
about three, maybe might have been a bit later but we did think
we ought to go and get some sleep, erm cos there wasn't really
much that we could do, erm and then that morning, erm I mean
Grace was always up sort of about six, half six, erm and when we
got up you know everything was quiet outside, they didn't seem
you know the Police didn't seem to be around or, there didn't
seem to be any activity, erm Matt took Grace up for breakfast to
the Millennium, erm and they came back, I remember having, sort
of being on the phone a little bit to the BBC I think that
morning, erm and then sort of various phone calls, I talked to
John CORNER who's a friend of Gerry and Kate's, erm cos the BBC
wanted a picture of Madeleine, erm and he had some photos that
he was going to be able to send them, erm and then and I think
maybe about ten-ish, well we would have taken Grace to cr'he I
think for about nine half nine I think did we that day, I think
we took her, erm then I think about ten, half ten Gerry, Kate,
Matt and Jane and maybe Dave as well, erm went to Portim' to the
Police Station to start doing interviews'.
01.23.20 1578 'The next question is, who did you talk to, so
was there anyone else that you've not covered''
Reply 'I don't think so no'.
1578 'The older guy'.
1578 'From the apartments upstairs said that he had been'.
Reply 'He had been'.
1578 'Or he had disappeared or'.
Reply 'Yes when he was a child, erm'.
1578 'Do you know which apartment he was in''
Reply 'No, erm'.
1578 'Or his name or description''
Reply 'No, erm he had grey hair, sort of slim-ish guy, erm he
was with a woman you know, his wife I presumed, erm'.
1578 'What nationality was he''
Reply 'He was English, British, erm you know he must have been
in his sixties, erm'.
01.24.39 1578 'Do you know which apartment he was in''
Reply 'No I don't'.
1578 'Where did you speak with him''
Reply 'Because we were'.
1578 'Sorry, where did you speak''
Reply 'Oh where, just in that courtyard-y bit, kind of at the
bottom of the steps, just outside Russell and Jane's apartment
really, they were going up, back up to their apartment, erm and
he knew what had been going on, or you know I think he'd been
out in the village or and well he knew that there was a child
missing and he said, you know, don't worry it will be alright or
something like that, or you know, I went missing when I was
little and I came back, erm but no I don't know what his name is
or which apartment he was in'.
1578 'And you mentioned another guy, John CORNER''
Reply 'Yes, he's a friend of Gerry and Kate's who was in
England, I spoke to him on the phone, on Kate's phone actually'.
Reply 'That was the next morning, sort of you know, eight
o'clock in the morning, that sort of time'.
1578 'When did you leave Portugal''
Reply 'On the erm, erm the Thursday the erm seventeenth of May,
it was a Thursday, I think it was the seventeenth'.
1578 'And who was that with''
Reply 'Erm Russell and Jane, Ella and Evie, Matt, Grace, me and
erm, no just us'.
Reply 'Craig from Mark WARNER was all, sort of also travelled
with us, which cos he was going back to the UK as well'.
01.27.00 1578 'So during that two week period then after
Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate
Reply 'Erm, I mean not, not that often, erm I mean I think,
mmm, oh we didn't kind of meet up specifically to chat or talk
about things or see what was happening, erm I mean we just seen
them sometimes at the cr'he when they collected Sean and Amelie,
although quite a lot of the time Sandy who's Gerry's brother in
law and Trish who's Gerry's sister erm collected the twins, erm
I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi's
apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us
you know what was happening and what was being done and erm that
would probably have been either Sunday or the Monday, something
like that but I mean I can't be certain about days, erm and we
saw them at church, when we went to church, I think the first
time we went to church was on the Saturday and then we went on
the Sunday, cos it was like a Mothering Sunday thing on Sunday,
we went then, erm and then I think on the Thursday after, the
following Thursday the tenth, there was some sort of vigil in
the church and then we went to church again on the Sunday the
thirteenth and on the Saturday the twelfth, which was
Madeleine's birthday, erm we went to a villa near the Resort,
near, on a Resort and sort of had a barbecue and sort of had a
quiet day, we sort of, cos it was Madeleine's birthday'.
1578 'Do you think they were showing normal behaviour for
parents who had lost a child''
Reply 'Mmm yes absolutely, I mean you know I've never met any
other parents who've lost a child but I would assume that that's
how people would behave, I mean you know Kate cried a lot and
erm, well I can't imagine how people would behave differently,
you know, I don't think anyone could just sort of, yes alright
okay this is you know, she's disappeared but we're just gonna
carry on as normal, well you just couldn't do that I don't
think, don't think anyone could, so I think they, you know the
way they behaved was entirely natural'.
01.31.05 1578 'During the time you were on holiday, did you
notice any situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any
Reply 'No I mean, no I mean nobody that there was you know not
another family that were on holiday but I don't specifically
remember them talking to other couples that, or you know
families that were on holiday aside from Steve and his wife on
the night of the third and then erm, erm I mean when the
children were playing in their recreation area, but I don't
specifically remember them talking to anyone but you know we'd
all kind of say hello to other parents, or you know ask what
they'd been doing that day, that sort of thing, but you know,
nobody that was like a stranger, nobody that didn't have kids
really, erm because everyone in that sort of, in the compound
where the recreation area was and where the swimming pool was,
were Mark WARNER guests, holiday guests and I think everyone had
1578 'Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the
Reply 'During the whole time that we were there, or just, or up
to the third of May or, I mean I never saw them in a car the
whole time, I mean there was no car'.
1578 'Answers the question then'.
Reply 'Yeah, other than you know sort of going to the Police
Station and that sort of thing, but that would have been driven
1578 'Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider
pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''
Reply 'Erm what do you mean, in just sort of anything as well''
1578 'I guess do you have any other information that would
assist the enquiry''
Reply 'Mmm I mean nothing, you know it was just a really quiet
Resort, there was nobody about you know before, I mean even
after, until the media arrived, the place was dead really, erm I
mean, kind of feel that you know, you would have noticed, you
know ought to have noticed if there were strangers around or
sort of people who looked slightly odd or were hanging around
too much, but then again you know when you, kind of eyes that
tend to be on the ground because you know, everyone's got small
children, you tend not to be looking up that much, so erm no but
it was just so quiet that anyone really without children would
you know, would stand out, erm you know but there were places
where people could hide you know, there were, there cer, there
were certainly areas you know near that car park and those
apartments off, opposite where there are bushes, where somebody
could hide and be watching us, erm you know and our routine was
so set, you know every night we had dinner at eight thirty in
the Tapas, erm and it wouldn't have been hard to find that out,
erm or to just you know, watch every night and see what we did,
erm so but I mean you know, there was, you just didn't see
anything unusual, erm and you know the only thing that really
sort of bugs me is that you know Robert MURAT was there that
night and for some reason he said he's not but you know, when he
was arrested, or taken in for questioning, erm I mean had a
really uneasy feeling about him on the night when I met him and
I said this to the Portuguese, I said it in my, it's erm, I did
three statements and the third one that I did was specifically
about seeing MURAT on the night, erm and when I met him on the
third of May and we shook hands, erm and he said he wanted to
help, you know he was one of those people that I just kind of
took an instant dislike to almost, just felt really uneasy about
him and erm he just came, he was just sort of very over familiar
and kind of wanting to be in the thick of things, and I just
thought that was slightly odd behaviour, erm and you know I, you
know didn't think sort of anything of it really at the time,
just some you know, a bit odd, erm and then we saw him again, I
don't know which day it was, it must have be, it wasn't, it was
either, I think it might have been the Saturday erm I was coming
back from the Supermarket with Russell, I think maybe with
Fiona, don't know whether it was Fi but Russell was definitely
there and we saw him again and he just kind of said, 'hello and
how's things going' and then erm he was in the church on the
Sunday I think, the first Sunday after Madeleine disappeared,
erm and I just had this funny feeling about him and because when
Jane had seen this man carrying the child, when we'd been
discuss, you know when she told me that she'd seen somebody
carrying a child, she said at the time she thought it was odd
but you know, kind of as you're wandering about every day, you
see lots of things that are odd but you know, you don't really
sort of act upon it, erm so just cos I thought that MURAT you
know just gave me a funny feeling, I thought I'd just tell
everyone but I just thought you know, he was a bit strange or he
just made me feel uneasy and I was literally about to do that
and I remember I went for a run along the beach and came back,
and this is on Monday the erm the fourteenth, the day that he
was arrested or whatever, erm as I went for a run, came back,
thought I'll just, you know had a shower and stuff and thought
that I'd go and tell everyone that you know I just didn't like
him and had this uneasy feeling about him and I switched on the
TV and he was there you know, being taken off to the Police
Station, which you know, made me feel quite sick, it was a
horrible feeling, erm anyway that was kind of the end of that,
erm and it was only, and then it was, and then the next day erm
the only reason that sort of me and Russell and Fiona ended up
doing statements about seeing Robert MURAT on the night, was
that Jane was talking to Bob SMALL the next day about doing this
sort of, I think it was connected to that surveillance thing
she'd done, erm I think it was on the Sunday, erm and she'd
mentioned to him that you know, obviously when I'd seen MURAT on
the TV, I'd said oh you know, he was there on the night and you
know we spoke, erm it was only cos Jane mentioned that to Bob
SMALL that he ended up sort of calling back later on and saying
actually you know, you'd better talk to the Portuguese about
that, erm you know at that time, we didn't know that he was, I
mean I didn't know that he was saying he wasn't there on the
night, that only came out I think, I don't know even if I knew
about that before I left Portugal, erm, erm so then you know,
and then we, Russell, Fiona and I went back to Portugal to do
that sort of sitting in the room with him, to see whether he'd
kind of break under the pressure or whatever, erm I mean he
didn't, you know he was just telling lies about being there on
the night and I, you know nobody, oh I don't know, I presume
that has been followed up but it just seems quite significant, I
don't know why it hasn't been posted in the media, it doesn't
seem to have been pursued, which kind of makes you think that
the Police haven't really done much about it, erm you know
they've kind of gone after Gerry and Kate and that's been all
over the papers and erm you know, there's this man who was there
on the night, who's telling, you know, who's lying about it and
nothing really about that's come out, erm you know in the Press
we were made out to sort of be the bullies in the, that stand
off with him you know it was all very controlled and you know,
just yes he was there and he was saying he wasn't you know,
there was no shouting and screaming or anything like that which
the Press made out to be, erm but you know he was there and the
Police were there with him on the night as well, you know the
GNR, I think he was translating, and yet you know he's saying
that he wasn't there and everyone seems to believe that, or
that's you know, that's my impression anyway'.
1578 'Okay. We shall finish this interview at this point'.
1578 'And I'll go and speak with colleagues'.
1578 'There's, there is one other issue that I need to ask you
about, hopefully it won't take too long'.
01.41.20 1578 'Alright. So the time now is three twenty
eight pm and this interview is ceasing'.
Maddie: Rachael Mampilly interview at Leicestershire Police
Headquarters – part III/III
00.00.04 1578 'Okay, the time is four twelve pm and that's on
Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight.
We're at the Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters in an
interview room. I'm Detective Constable 1578 Andrew GIERC from
the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you give me your full
name and date of birth please''
Reply 'Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY, eleventh of the
1578 'Thank you. This is the third interview of today Rachael,
you're here voluntarily as a significant witness, assisting the
Portuguese Authorities in the investigation of the disappearance
of Madeleine McCANN, which is as you know was on the evening of
Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven. At the end of
the last interview, you indicated that you would like to talk
about the conversation Jane had with you in respect of her
Reply 'Mmm erm'.
1578 'Would you like to run through that with us please, tell
us precisely, as accurately as possible what Jane told you,
firstly when she told you''
Reply 'Mmm mmm'.
1578 'Where you were when she told you and then run through as
accurately as possible the conversation''
Reply 'Okay, erm basically after Matt and I had checked on
Grace, erm Matt went off to search and I went across to Jane's
apartment cos she was there with Evie, erm and just told her
that Madeleine had gone missing, erm and I must have known at
that point that the window was open and the shutter was up, erm
cos basically when I told her that and this was in the
courtyard, the sort of, well outside Jane's apartment in that
sort of courtyard-y area between our two apartments, erm Jane
looked sort of quite horrified and then said that when she'd
walked up to check on Ella and Evie at sort of ten past nine,
erm when she'd passed Gerry and Jez who were talking in the
street, she'd seen a man carrying a child walking across the top
of the road and she said you know at the time, she thought it
was a bit odd, erm but sort of didn't, didn't really think twice
about it because you know the, it was the sort of place where
parents carry children around at night because they might have
had them in the cr'he, erm while they went off to have dinner
and then we'd you know pick up the kids and they could well be
asleep and be carrying them home to bed, so she said she did
think it was a bit odd but you know, obviously with hindsight,
of course she'd kind of gone after them but erm, erm and she, so
she told me that and we just, you know, our conversation, we
were just batting back and forth well you know, surely it
couldn't have been Madeleine, cos Jane said she'd past Gerry and
Jez in the street as she was walking up, so she'd literally gone
passed Gerry and this man was walking across the top of the
road, erm so it was like, well how could it be Madeleine because
you know, Gerry would have just you know left the apartment a
couple of minutes ago after checking on them, erm and, and then,
so but we came to the same conclusion that it was significant
and that she'd have to tell, you know, she would tell the Police
when they arrived, erm and I think I asked her what he was wear,
what this person was wearing, erm and she said he had like a
dark jacket on, sort of like a windcheater type thing, erm and
sort of brownish coloured trousers, erm and shoes, I mean they
weren't trainers and they weren't sort of proper shoes, you know
but it, they were sort of something, I don't know, like I don't
know, Hush Puppies, that type of thing, erm and she said that
his hair was sort of fairly long, long at the back, erm not long
as in, as in length but in sort of volume and we talked about,
you know she said it, you know he looked sort of Mediterranean,
he, or Portuguese just because you know the Europeans tend to
wear their hair sort of you know, longer at the back, whereas
you know most British men have it all sort of cut in and short.
So she said he, no he didn't really, that's why she, I think you
know, she thought it was a bit odd because he didn't really look
like a holidaymaker, erm cos most of the people wandering about,
erm you know were all wearing shorts or, you could kind of tell
they were Brits on holiday, erm so he didn't really fit that
mould and erm, she'd thought, the other thing that had kind of
made her suspicious I suppose, was that the child you know
wasn't covered with a blanket or anything like that, was just in
pyjamas, you know with bare legs and feet hanging down, erm so
the child was being carried like that, you know the sort of head
there and body and legs hanging down, erm and you know it was
cold at night, I mean you know we all had lots of layers on, erm
so she thought that was a bit odd you know, erm that the child
just had pyjamas on and nothing else, erm and the person
carrying her had a, oh you know had a jacket and, and long
trousers, erm, erm so we sort of ummed and arred about that and
you know decided that well you know, it just seemed too much of
a coincidence that you know it couldn't be insignificant, erm so
you know Jane said she'd tell the Police as soon as they
arrived, which she did, erm and erm she didn't describe the
pyjamas to me then, erm it was only really, I think it was the
next day or perhaps even the day after that, that Jane, Fiona
and I had a conversation about the pyjamas that the child was
wearing, erm and Jane had said that they were sort of white with
sort of pink flowers or something on and they had a bit of a,
like a trim around the bottom, erm and Fiona said she'd asked
Kate erm about the pyjamas, you know, what sort of pyjamas
Madeleine was wearing, erm and sort of later that day I think
you know, Fi came back and said basically Jane had described the
pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing, so you know, that absolutely
convinced us that this person walking away was carrying
Madeleine, erm you know Jane, I mean none of us knew, I mean I
suppose I, I might have known what bed clothes, erm what pyjamas
Evie and Ella wore but that was only cos quite often they came
to read stories in our apartment, or you know if Grace went
there, but otherwise you know, we didn't ever seen any of the
other children at bed time, erm you know, I know Jane hadn't
seen the twins or Madeleine at bed time, so she would have no
idea what pyjamas, or you know, or what Madeleine wore to bed,
whether they were pyjamas or a nightie whatever, so erm, so it
was you know sort of like the two, I think it must have been on
the Saturday, erm that the pyjamas, Jane described the pyjamas
to Fiona and Fiona found out from Kate, erm what Madeleine's
pyjamas were like and they were the same as the ones that Jane
00.08.19 1578 'But she didn't describe the pyjamas to yourself
on the evening''
Reply 'On the night no, we just talked about the man and what
he was wearing, erm and the fact that he was carrying a child
that was just in pyjamas, you know with no blanket'.
1578 'What time did you have the conversation with Jane on the,
on the evening''
Reply 'On the night, erm I mean it was probably about ten
fifteen, twenty past ten, something like that (inaudible)'.
1578 'And where were you''
Reply 'Erm just outside Jane's apartment in that sort of
courtyard-y area, between 5D and 5B'.
1578 'Was there anyone else present''
Reply 'No there was just Jane and I'.
1578 'Do you know if she had told anyone else about that
sighting prior to telling you''
Reply 'No she wouldn't have done because I was, you know I were
literally, I went to tell her that Madeleine was missing, she
didn't know up until that point and then she'd said she, you
know then that's when she told me she'd seen this man, or the
person and yeah I mean she hadn't seen anyone out, you know,
anyone from our group until that point, but she didn't actually
know Madeleine was missing 'til I told her then'.
1578 'Okay and you mentioned earlier Rachael that at that
1578 'You must have known that the shutter was up and the
window was open''
00.09.38 1578 'Do you know who told you that''
Reply 'Erm but I mean I remember kind of standing near the
window with Kate and Fiona, erm so but I mean I don't remember
the specifics of anyone actually saying to me that, I think it
was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort of milling
around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate's apartment
and cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later
in the night, erm you know Kate had tried to see whether you
could lift the shutters from the outside, erm but which you
could and they would stay up, erm so I think, I don't think
anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the
shutters were up, it was just erm you know kind of listening to
conversations and seeing Kate and Fiona, erm sort of outside the
1578 'Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the
1578 'When was that''
Reply 'When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know
standing by the shutters, by the window'.
1578 'When you say by the window, do you mean by the building
line, or in the car park''
Reply 'Erm by the building, on that path in front of the, in
front of the actual window'.
1578 'And when would that have been''
Reply 'Erm well I think it must have been just before I told
Jane that, you know we, Matt checked on Grace and I mean I, I
did, I thought we'll go straight to Jane and you know tell her
that Madeleine was missing but if sort of Kate and Fi and you
know Dave and Gerry might have come out of the apartment and
sort of been standing around there and talking about this, these
shutters being up and the window being open, erm and I didn't, I
didn't have a conversation with anyone, I just heard them
talking about it, erm so I think it was you know in that time
between sort of you know five past ten and ten fifteen, erm but
it wasn't somebody specifically coming up to me and saying, 'the
windows were open and the shutters were up'.'
1578 'Okay. Did you want to mention something about Doctors in
Reply 'Yeah I was just going to say that, you know Kate and
Gerry are both Doctors and you know there were three other
medics in the group, erm four others actually sorry, four
others, erm you know so if by any chance they'd accidentally
done anything to Madeleine or she was ill or erm you know
something wasn't quite right, I mean they wouldn't have just
left her and sort of tried to cover it up as an accident or you
know, they would of sort of you know, come and got Matt and
Russell and Dave and Fi, erm I mean you know, not just because
they are Doctors, because you know they're parents and you'd
kind of go to anyone to see who could help but if you've got,
you know Doctors as friends who were there as well, erm you know
there were kind of six people there who if Madeleine had
accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the
theories are supposed to be, erm you know, there were plenty of
people there who could of you know, tried to revive a child,
00.13.16 1578 'Okay'.
Reply 'You know and Gerry, Gerry and Kate would certainly have
done that, erm'.
1578 'In respect of Madeleine herself, are you able to describe
Reply 'Erm I mean she was you know, a very bubbly little girl,
erm very cheery, erm very sort of caring, she was very good with
er smaller children, erm you know I just remember Grace falling
over and sort of Madeleine going to pick her up and help her,
erm you know, sort of full of fun, lots of energy, running
around, sporty, erm one game that sort of we used to play in the
evenings by the recreation area was you know, somebody would
pretend to be a monster and they'd all sort of say, 'chase me,
chase me' and Madeleine was always kind of the one who started
that off, erm sort of say, 'oh let's play monsters' and so you
know it would be Matt or Dave or Russell sort of running around
chasing all the kids, erm'.
578 'What about her intelligence''
Reply 'Erm a bright little girl I think, erm I mean oh, her, I
suppose I don't know her well enough to, to really comment on
that but I mean, she was, you know she was sort of very together
and certainly acted her age or sort of you know older than her
age, she was very sort of self aware, erm'.
00.14.43 1578 'Do you know if she was aware of stranger danger
Reply 'Yeah I'm sure she would have been, I mean I don't know
personally but erm you know I think'.
1578 'To your knowledge, was she the sort of little girl that
would have gone with a stranger''
Reply 'No I don't, no I don't think she would have done, no,
erm no, I mean, I mean, I don't, you know I didn't know
Madeleine well enough but I know Ella who was you know a couple
of months younger than Madeleine and you know, I mean she would,
she wouldn't go off with a stranger and you know just from sort
of all our backgrounds and the way that the children are brought
up, erm you know I don't think Madeleine would either'.
1578 'Okay. Finally would you be available to travel to
Portugal to, to take part in a re-enactment of the incidents of
Friday the third of May, two thousand and seven, there are two
specific periods provisionally quoted, the twenty eighth to the
twenty ninth of April or the fifteenth to the sixteenth of May
Reply 'Yeah I mean we could be available but erm you know we've
expressed our reservations about going to Portugal and about the
reasons for doing a re-enactment, you know in a letter to Stuart
PRIOR, erm I can't really see how you know, what the purpose of
it would be nearly a year down the line, erm you know there are
lots, you know there are the full details about our movements
that night and what happened and you know, there's the time line
that we prepared when we were out there which we thought was
gonna be helpful for the PJ, erm and you know obviously since
then there are all our statements and I know times might be
slightly out and you know, but not, I don't, can't imagine
they'd be sort of materially out, erm you know to make a huge
difference, erm so I don't really see one why it needs to be
done at all and two why it has to be us, erm I mean you know,
asking us as a group to go back and do that when it was, you
know it was such a, an horrific event and certainly you know to
be sitting around that table again and sort of pretending to go
back and check the rooms and it would be, it would just be awful
and you know, I mean much more difficult you know for Kate and,
and Jane, erm you know than me anyway, erm don't see why they
can't do it with actors'.
Reply 'Erm and I can't really see what the material benefit to
finding Madeleine would be doing that re-enactment'.
578 'Fine. Can I just ask you please, on the, the rough notes
that you made'.
1578 'On the previous interview, would you kindly write on
there your next exhibit reference, which is RMJM103. Okay I
think it just remains for me on behalf of the Portuguese
Authorities to sincerely thank you for your time and efforts
Reply 'That's okay'.
00.18.36 1578 'Thank you. The time is four thirty one pm and
this interview is ceasing'.