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30
- Witness statement of Sophie Victoria Ferguson (police officer)
2008.05.17 Stephen Carpenter |
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Cartas Rogatorias Vol III Page 30 |
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Leicestershire Police Force
Statement of : Sophie
Victoria Ferguson
Occupation: Police Officer
This statement (consisting of 1 page and signed by me) is
truthful and in accordance with my understanding. I make my
statement conscious that, if proven to the contrary, I would be
subject to be charged in the case of knowing anything to be
untrue or which does not correspond to the truth.
Date: 17th May 2008
Signature.
I am police detective 4078 Ferguson of the Leicestershire Police
Force, currently working at the main Crime Unit within the
Operation Task investigation.
At 10.30 on 21st April 2008 I was present at the recorded
interview that took place in Telford Avenue, Stevenage,
Hertfordshire, of the witness Stephen Carpenter. The questioning
began at 10.30 and finished at 11.09.
This interrogation was recorded on DVD, an original and a copy
of the work was produced. The audio system was recorded on
cassette.
I reproduced the main copy from the DVD with reference number
S.V.F 129 and a copy of the work with reference number S.V.F
130. The audio cassette is marked as reference S.V.F. 131.
I had the opportunity to read and analyse the transcription made
of this interrogation which is referenced as S.V.F. 130ª. |
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31 to 56
Transcription of witness
statement
of
Stephen Carpenter
(holidaymaker at
the same resort as
the Tapas group) 2008.04.21 |
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RESTRICTED
Statement number S87B
Printed version of recorded document
Surname: CARPENTER
First name. STEPHEN
Profession: Maintenance Technician
Date of Statement: 21/04/2008-
Number of pages : 1
I am the person referred to above
and I live at the address provided
to the police.
I confirm that I was questioned by
DC 4078 Ferguson from Leicestershire
police on 21st April 2008.
The questioning began at 10.30 and
finished at 11.10 on the same day.
The questioning was filmed on DVD
and on cassette. This statement was
made by me and is truthful according
to my understanding.
The questioning took place at the
police station in Stevenage,
Hertfordshire on the 21st April
2008.
I would be more than satisfied if
the evidence presented by me was
used and if required to appear at
court in Portugal I would need to be
notified in advance. .
Statement
Date 21st April 2008
Pages: 1
Statement of Stephen Carpenter
Leicestershire Police Force
Form MG15 (T)
Officer who conducted the
questioning: DC 4078 Ferguson
Pages: 26
_____________________________
__
Duration of Interview: 39 minutes
DCF: Do you agree with me reading
out your statement'
SC: Yes, I agree, yes.
DCF: Or would you prefer to read out
the statement yourself'
SC: No, thats fine, you can read it.
DCF: I thought it would make more
sense that way:
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: So when we get to the moment
that refers to Portugal, it will
refresh your memory.
SC: Please can I take some notes'
DCF: Yes of course. I'll get you a
sheet of paper.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: I will have to go and get one
because I haven't got my bag with
me.
.
DC FERGUSON leaves the interrogation
room..
DC FERGUSON returns to the
interrogation room.
DCF: This was the best I could find.
SC: Yes, that's fine, its just for
small details like people's names.
DCF: Yes.
SC: That would be, humm the
babysitters and the people I played
tennis with. I've got, hummm I
almost remember all of their names.
.
DCF: I would just like to introduce
myself, I am DC Sophie Ferguson. I
work for the Main Criminal Unit of
the Leicestershire police and we
have obviously been working on the
disappearance of Madeleine McCann,
to provide assistance to the
Portuguese and the reason for which
we are here today is because the
Portuguese have asked us to carry
out some questioning of some of the
witnesses.
SC: Agreed.
DCF: And also, Gerry and Kate have
the right to ask the witnesses some
questions and for that reason some
of the questionings carried out
incorporate questions suggested by
them.
SC. OK.
DCF: It is now 10.30 on the 21st
April.
SC: Yes.
DCF: It is the 21st today, isn't it'
SC: Yes.
DCF: Of the year 2008 and we are in
a room in a house on Telford Avenue
in Stevenage where neither of us
have been before.
SC: OK
DCF: DC Eleanor JOHNSON is
monitoring this interrogation Could
you please tell m your name in full'
SC: Humm... Stephen John CARPENTER
DCF: And your date of birth'
SC: *******
DCF: Thank you. Would you prefer us
to call you Stephen or Steve'
SC: Steve.
DCF: Steve it is then.
SC: Mm.
DCF:Okay, there is a letter for you,
a letter to be handed to you ...
SC: Okay, thanks.
DCF: Before beginning the
questioning and explaining the
reason why you are here.
SC: Okay.
DCF: You can take a minute to read
the contents if you wish..
(CARPENTER reads the letter): Yes,
that's fine..
DCF: Okay, as I already explained
previously this will be filmed so
that we can send the CD so that the
Portuguese can hear instead of only
reading the statement, once they get
a copy.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And I know that before we begin
the questioning, that you showed
some concern about the truthful
recording of the facts and that they
could have had some distortions by
what you have read about the event.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Therefore what we have agreed
to do is to read your statement and
put the facts together.
SC: Ah ha, yes that would seem right
to me.
DCF: And afterwards I will ask you
whether there is anything else you
would like to add.
SC: Okay.
DCF: Or anything else that you would
like to discuss and afterwards,
afterwards I will ask the questions
that we were requested.
SC: Okay.
DCF: And we can talk about this for
as long as we need to, there is no
time limit.
SC: Yes, fine.
DCF: Are you feeling all right'
SC: Yes, fine.
DC: Good. Right, this statement was
taken by a UK police officer on the
17th May and so the facts should be
quite fresh in your memory.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: This is obviously 2007 and
begins by explaining the reason for
the questioning, in other words,
relating to the disappearance of
Madeleine. In the statement you say
"I will mention the following
persons who I will describe with
greater detail at the end of the
statement" Is it C*** or C******'
SC: C*****.
DCF: C***** is your wife and at the
time of the events you had known her
for nine years and I****** is your
daughter aged three and a half and
F***** is obviously your other child
aged five months. During the holiday
you met the following persons, Gerry
and Kate McCann, saw their children,
Madeleine and the twins, but don't
know their names. J*** C***** whom I
met whilst playing tennis, I also
met Dan and Georgia who were tennis
instructors of the Mark Warner
holiday resort (inaudible) I had met
Dan on previous Mark Warner holidays
at the (inaudible) resort. . I met
the following persons when I
participated in the searches for
Madeleine during the day after her
disappearance, Raj and Neil, Mark
Warner tourists, John Hill, manager
of the MW resort, we also used three
babysitters, Pauline, Emma and
Leanne. Emma and Leanne would look
after our children in the evenings,
they were all British and employees
of MW. A man with three children
whom I met in the Tapas Bar and who
I referred to as the "Tapas Guy" and
a Portuguese man in a garage whom I
will refer to as the "laundry man".
SC: Okay.
DCF:Okay. That was just to set the
scene..
SC: Yes.
DCF: Neil and Raj, two MW tourists
that I saw in the Tapas Bar who were
looking for Madeleine with me,
doesn't make much sense, I think it
was perhaps explaining who they are
and where I met them. I will now
describe the resort and to help me
with this description I will base
myself upon an aerial photograph
from the Sun Newspaper dated the
16th May, which we do not have here
today, but which is not important.
The resort is a closed holiday
complex with apartments and some
villas. This takes us to the next
question which is, how did you
appear on the scene. "My wife booked
the holidays in the MW resort in
Praia da Luz, from Saturday 28th
April to Saturday 5th May, at Going
Places in Welwyn Garden City." You
go on to describe your previous
holidays and that you chose this one
because you were told that the "baby
sitter" service was available. You
arrived at the resort on Saturday
morning, pardon on Saturday at
approximately two in the afternoon
and were accompanied to your
apartment, FP02 Ocean Club.
At about 4.15 on the same day you
went to a crèche meeting where you
wee told who the crèche workers who
would look after your children were
and that your children would be in
different groups given the
difference in age. I**** was in the
group for children between three and
four years old, her crèche worker
was Emma and it was only after the
disappearance of Madeleine McCann
that I realised that she was in the
same group as I****. That night
C****, F****, I**** and I went to
the Millenium Restaurant, we did not
see any of the other MW tourists
there and I remember that I did not
see any of the other people I
mentioned in my statement there. On
Sunday the 29th April C**** and I
participated in a coffee morning of
the MW tennis group where I met
Gerry, Kate, J****, C****, R****,
A***, G***, A***'s sister and A***,
there were other tourists there
whose names now escape me. In total
there were approximately some
sixteen people at this coffee
morning and tennis was one of the
activities that the man, or that
both subscribed to during the week.
I am summarising a bit, because.....
SC: Okay, that's fine..
DCF: I first played tennis with Kate
and G***n, there was another lady
whose name I can't remember and
afterwards I played with Kate and
G**** against Gerry and naturally
after the game I spoke to Gerry and
Kate as well as to the other people
present. I think that this is just a
setting of the scene.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: In this way I got to know Gerry
and Kate and spoke with them as I
did with other people.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: And during my stay I would
greet them when I met them. Later we
pass to your activities during the
week, do you remember if there was
anything relevant in their
activities during this week'
SC: Humm, anything relevant, not
really....hummmm... it was normal,
possibly after having left and now
knowing where Murat was in relation
to us, because i don't know whether
they showed you the proximity
between us.
DCF: No.
SC: Let me show you some things
about that, humm....let's see,
because...hummm, our apartment was
not near to there.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Here was the club where Gerry
was, behind Murat's garden and here
we were probably the people closest
to Murat.
DCF: Thats true, I see.
SC: The bushes were all around here,
we were far away from the rest, it
was all open, and this is why I
think (inaudible) you know, this is
the idea that, humm...I think of
when i mentioned in the
interrogation that there was a
laundry outlet where other things
were kept.
DCF: Mmm, yes.
SC: But humm, nothing strange that
someone wouldn't do during their
holidays, the only thing is thinking
about our proximity to Murat's
property.
DCF: Yes, I understand, much of this
is in the....
SC: Background.
DCF: Yes. When I went to the Tapas
Bar and was seen there, talking on
the Thurday 3rd May we analysed this
in more detail because it was
obviously more relevant. "The second
time I entered the Tapas Bar was on
Thursday 3rd May" which ended up
being the day that Madeleine
disappeared.
.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: We arrived at about seven
because we had the children with us
and I saw a man sitting at the table
next to us with three children.
SC: Yes
.
DCF: He was going to take a plane
the next day to Switzerland, given
that the children's mother lived
there, I had never seen him before
that night, but he ended up joining
us for a coffee, he was a MW
tourist. Another couple whose names
I do not remember, sat at the table
opposite us. A man was sitting on
the esplanade having a drink whilst
waiting for a take away, I spoke to
them briefly, I hadn't realised that
the Tapas bar had a take away
service. At that time i didn't know
their names. At approximately half
past eight, Gerry and Kate and their
group of approximately ten people
were already seated at their table,
which was so close to ours that it
was possible to converse with them,
we spoke of tennis amongst other
things, I vaguely remember that
Gerry and Kate and other people from
the group would leave the table in
intervals (inaudible), I think it
was to check on the children , but I
do not remember with what frequency
or how many times the people left
the table to check on the children.
We did not talk about the system for
checking the children or the fact
that they had left them alone in the
apartment, it was only later upon
hearing the news that I realised
that they had left the children
alone in the apartment and that they
were regularly checking to see if
they were all right. Between
approximately a quarter past nine
and half past nine we left the Tapas
bar to go home, we walked across the
MW reception area, crossed the road
and a semi circular path to return
to the apartment, were we put the
children to bed and a short while
later did the same ourselves. I do
not remember seeing or hearing
anyone during our return to the
apartment. When I crossed the road
outside the MW reception I remember
there were cars parked, I remember
taking some time to see if I could
cross the road because there were
cars parked to my left and I was
carrying I****. They were about six
metres away from me and i calculate
that some (inaudible) metres from
the back of Gerry's apartment, I do
not remember anything about these
cars, it was normal for cars to be
parked there and in the morning they
were no longer there. My wife
mentioned on the following day that
she vaguely remembered someone
calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this
was after we had crossed the road
from the MW reception and before
entering our apartment. She does not
remember where the sound came from
or whether it was in an urgent tone,
not paying any more attention to it
and only remembered the following
day when we heard about Madeleine's
disappearance". OK, before going on
the next part, do you remember at
what time you left'
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was
what was put in the statement, the
same, the leaving the restaurant,
the way back to the apartment,
looking to my left to check that the
way was clear and I didn't see
anything....My wife vaguely
remembers hearing "Madeleine,
Madeleine" and that was all until
the following morning when I saw the
television.
DCF: Yes, and where you state that
it was on GMTV.
SC:: Yes..
DCF: I think that it was reported
that it was a three year old child
and probably thought who could it be
and knew that Kate and Gerry were
from Leicestershire and assumed that
it was one of their children seeing
that they had small children'
SC: Ah.
DCF: And afterwards you left your
apartment to see if you could help
in any way and as you said
previously, everything was very
quiet and there was nobody around.
Then you say "I went to the MW
reception and I met two of Gerry's
surfing friends who told me that
Madeleine had been abducted on the
previous night, I asked if there was
anything I could do to help and I
think they were waiting for news
from the Portuguese police. We
walked towards the supermarket and
ended up at the 24 hour reception
where some men tried to speak to
some Portuguese employees in the
attempt to make a phone call, but
communication became complicated
because the employee did not speak
English and the man did not speak
Portuguese. We returned to the MW
reception where I asked whether
there was anything I could do to
help so that they would let me know
and returned to my apartment by the
same route as the previous night.
Upon nearing my apartment I heard a
male voice coming from the garden
next to my apartment.
DCF: This would be the voice of
Murat, correct'
SC: Yes. This garden is situated at
the other side of the passage way
from my apartment block and is
enclosed by net fence of about 1.80
m in height, the garden is thick and
it was not possible to see inside,
there was also a passageway along
the garden without a wall that was
on the way from our apartment to the
Millenium restaurant. At some stage
I managed to see clearly inside the
garden, but I did not know who was
the owner of the house and I never
saw anyone inside the garden or the
house or see anyone leaving until
the moment that I heard a voice
calling me. Then a voice called me
from over the hedge. "What is
happening, or what is going on'", I
replied that a three year old girl
had disappeared, he said "I am going
to come round to talk to you" and he
did this, walked round to come over
towards me and said "I have lived
here for fourteen years, I speak
Portuguese fluently and I can help
to translate", and we introduced
ourselves, he told me he was Robert
and this was the first time I had
seen this man. Robert mentioned that
he had a daughter in Norfolk who was
the same age as Madeleine, and that
is why he was able to understand
what they were going through. We
walked back along the path that I
had taken to Gerry's apartment and I
explained that Robert spoke
Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry
that it was important to have
someone who spoke the language so
that nothing would be lost in
translation.. And that was how
Robert Murat was presented as a
translator.
DCF: Yes
SC: After he left, he explained that
Gerry was frustrated with the way in
which the case was being handled and
they went to talk to John Hill.
DCF: Yes..
SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that
all the Mark Warner rooms be opened
so that he could check them and
asked the cleaning ladies etc. to
help open all the empty apartments
that were not necessarily in the
Mark Warner complex, but for which
they might have the keys. At this
moment I also met an English man
called Dave who lived in the area
and helped the Ocean Club to
authorise entry into all the
apartments possible, some of the
apartments in Gerry's block belonged
to local owners and Dave helped to
get the keys to these apartments so
that they could check them and
search them, they checked them all
in a general manner.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Robert and I searched the areas
near to the beach.
DCF: During your conversations with
Robert is there anything that you
would like to comment on'
SC: Humm, no, its probably nothing
relevant, the only thing since all
of this happened and from reading
the papers, I'm not sure if I am
right or wrong, but his involvement
in the translations was due to my
intervention, clearly it was I who,
based upon what he told me, took him
to see Gerry, humm..and just that, I
do not know whether it was already
explained and wasn't published in
the papers or I do not know why
(inaudible) I think that the reason
for his involvement was because of
me.
.
DCF: Mmm.
SC: And then the first thing that he
said was "Well, I did not actually
offer my services, I "bumped" into
this individual.
DCF: Yes:
SC: That is the only, only thing
that I would correct and I think it
is a bit strange that someone would
state that they offer themselves as
a volunteer, or the way in which it
really happened after having told me
that he spoke Portuguese fluently, I
said to him "Well, in this case that
could be useful" and afterwards
accompanied him - and that was how
he (inaudible) thought that it was a
bit strange. Because the way he said
it gave the impression that it was
voluntary.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Whereas now the version is a bit
different.
DCF: Yes, yes. And do you remember
what you talked about whilst you
were searching with him'
SC: Humm...he obviously talked to me
about his daughter.
DCF: Yes.
SC: They had a team of sniffer dogs
on site, they came from Lisbon
according to what I was told, and
afterwards we walked to the beach in
the attempt to find the scent, to
see of she had got lost alone or had
fallen into the sea, and it was just
him and me and the dog handlers, so
that there was not any big theme of
conversation, just walking the route
- or on the way back, when we
arrived we talked with different
Portuguese police
Officers and afterwards with the
officer who appeared to be leading
the operation, a man who appeared to
be from Forensics, but as I say now
nothing appears very clear to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... where Robert presented
himself as being capable of speaking
both languages and they couldn't,
they tried to use him in order to
obtain a maximum of information from
the English side, so that the
Portuguese could understand what the
people were saying and what state
they were in... that was the
involvement with the police and
afterwards we tried to enter all the
apartments that they had seen to
where Gerry and Kate were staying.
DCF: Yes..
SC: And it was just talking about,
you know...trying to get possible
access and trying to open a maximum
of doors in the area, and I think
that was all.
DCF: You go on to describe in a
little more detail the searches in
the apartments neighbouring on Gerry
and Kate's apartment, then you met
Neil and Raj who began to talk and
told you that they had collaborated
in the searches the night before.
SC: Yes. .
DCF: And they explained to you that
they had seen a man with dreadlocks
and they felt there was something
suspicious about him, that they were
not satisfied with him.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Then he introduced himself
saying that he lived in Portugal and
that he had just bought an apartment
block.
.
SC: Yes.
DCF:
They were staying opposite Gerry's
block, that meant that they were
more concentrated in that area.
SC: Yes, because Raj in particular
said that he felt there was
something strange and that he was
not certain, and the fact of where
they were staying, the fact that the
back of the apartment block was
opposite Kate and Gerry's apartment,
humm...and the fact that they even
discussed the purchase price and how
much he had paid, but the following
morning there was no sign, even
knocking on all the doors of the
apartments that were occupied and
those that were empty, we did not
find anyone, he said, and that is
why we thought it was strange that
someone who had been available and
collaborated in the searches and who
lived in the area, was not found the
following morning, because as you
know, we were not contactable.
DCF: No sign of him and you remember
that you were worried about this man
who was described as being fifty
years of age with grey hair.
SC:Ah ha.
DCF: And it seemed strange that a
person who helped so much on the
previous night disappeared the
following morning.
SC: Yes, I suppose there was
something that even the local
Portuguese would be incapable of
identifying (inaudible) or
recognising for the description of a
poster especially.
DCF: Who it was.
SC: Hummm.. then it was just a
question of asking who he might be,
where he was and to be able to
eliminate him from the list of
suspects, so that he would be at
least one less person to worry
about.
DCF: And did you speak to Robert
about this as the person who was
also on the scene'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Saturday morning, the 5th
May you spoke to a BBC reporter.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You told them that you remember
that some of the reporters were
being unfair and incorrect because
they were treating the situation as
that of a missing child and not of a
child whom had been abducted.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you go on to say that you
spoke to Robert that day about how
the Portuguese Police were unhappy
with the incomprehensible way in
which the British press treated
them.
SC: That was what he said. What he
explained to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: Yes, you met Gerry in the
swimming pool area on Saturday
afternoon, he told you that the
fifty year old man had not been
taken into consideration, that the
Leicestershire police were on their
way and you gave him your phone
number and returned to England that
night.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You certainly followed the
events on television.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Humm... afterwards you say that
on the 17th May you sent an email to
Sky News about the description of an
individual aged about fifty, humm....
on the 14th May you saw a report at
the end of the news which mentioned
that Robert Murat had been named a
suspect.
SC: Yes (inaudible) I spoke to a Sky
reporter, I think it was Ian Woods,
hummm...did I write that down there'
DCF: Its here, yes.
SC: Ah yes, yes and afterwards, humm...with
Murat well...I just caught a glimpse
of him on TV, it was rather my wife
who phoned Philomena afterwards who
then suggested that we contact the
police support service.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And that is what I did, and
afterwards the Hertford police
contacted us.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Two days later I think.
DCF: Exactly, you phoned the
criminal support number and was
transferred to the Operational Squad
of the Leicestershire Police Force
which is where we are working.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And we made a request to the
local police to collect your
statement and it was in this
sequence that your statement
arrived. It is likely that my papers
are not in order because this page
is more about the details of the
search of the apartments near to
Gerry's apartment and mentions the
man from the laundry.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: And about the searches carried
out.
SC: I remember that, yes.
DCF: You spoke to a man who later
showed you a garage where there was
a bed.
SC: Yes, well what happened was
that, Gerry's apartment was here
because it was not a flat area, it
was more or less like this and that
is why the opposite apartments were
higher.
DCF: Correct.
SC: That is why it could obviously
be seen, these apartments could be
looked over from above and all the
lower parts and where we, hummm..
this is where the grey haired man
was.
DCF: Right.
SC: Who had supposedly acquired a
property, and that is why I strongly
suggested that we should open the
maximum possible number of
doors,...I can't remember the name
of the man who I also met by chance
and who was doing some translating,
what was his name again, who helped
open the doors.
DCF: Was it John HILL'
SC: No, John Hill was a Mark Warner
employee, I can't remember his name,
but he...humm also knew the local
estate agent and different people
who helped to get the keys of the
properties from the letters, some of
whom were on holiday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And once the garage door was
opened, it was not just a garage for
a car, it was a type of "capsule" of
about six by nine metres in size
which became longer where there was
a bed in the corner, and it was when
we were searching this, the English
man with grey hair whose identity I
did not know, but who had explained
this to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... this garage belonged to
a Portuguese man, the man from the
laundry.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And when we entered the garage I
asked who lived there, he replied
that his son lived there and then
there were distractions and because
I was concentrated on the fifty year
old English man, this man is
Portuguese, it was only afterwards
when I thought later about what we
were searching for, it didn't occur
to me and I think it is because of
this that i mentioned it in my
statement two weeks later, because I
remember that there had been some
distortions.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Of course with Murat there is
Murat and the Russian individual,
you know....I thought that we might
well be looking for the totally
wrong person and the fact that a bed
existed in the garage and some
children's toys.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I thought, ohhh...its worth
mentioning this and that's the
reason I mentioned it in my
statement.
DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe
the Portuguese man, the laundry man
to me, yes'
SC: Yes.
I am certain that I read about this
at the beginning, which (inaudible)'
I think that afterwards, and
afterwards coincides with the fact
that he was the man from the laundry
and of the van parked there, because
as i have already explained, we were
here in a small street here above
which linked to the main road and to
everything beside here on top, the
rest was all pathways and I remember
that on two or three occasions I
thought...this is a dead end road,
the van was parked there, I never
saw anyone and more than once
assumed that it would be cleaning
staff and only this thought
coincided with the presence of the
man from the laundry, and if there
were any reply to be made in
relation to the link between the van
parked there and the laundry man.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Murat here, I think and the
laundry thing here.
DCF: Yes
SC: And I would once again give the
reason why I mentioned the subject..
DCF: Of what age did the laundry man
appear to be'
SC: Humm, I do not remember clearly
what I said, but obviously at times
Europeans appear older than they
are, because of
DCF...(inaudible) the sun.
SC: Yes with the sun, that was what
I said in the statement (inaudible).
DCF: I am going to try to locate the
first pages where it was mentioned,
but there is no description.
SC: Forty five to fifty years old, I
think.
DCF: I'm just trying to think what
age the man would be, it is
difficult to say for the man that I
saw, but he would have been of an
age that implied that he could have
a small child living in the garage
or it could be expected that the had
a grown up child.
SC: Oh, I think he would have been
about, you know.... eighteen years,
twenty or twenty two years old to
live in the back of a garage because
it had large cupboards and other
things, but to live in a garage
would mean that he had to be
eighteen or more, because of a
question of safety and because it
was not the best way to live.
DCF: No. Then as you say the
children's toys seemed to you to be
out of context'
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes, mainly because I would
think of someone aged eighteen or
slightly more.
DCF: And then the Mark Warner staff,
obviously it was after your return
when this was still being
investigated, the staff had photos
of Madeleine that the man handed to
an individual called C**** and his
girlfriend to be distributed.
SC: Ah ah, yes.
DCF: Its in the part where it
mentions that there was a van, and
says that it was parked at the back
of Robert Murat'' garden, and that
you never saw anyone use the van,
but you remember that it had
something to do with the cleaning
staff.
SC: Yes, to transport the bedlinen
and towels.
DCF: Yes. It says here that you
never saw anyone drive it, you just
know that you saw it parked, did you
ever notice that it was missing or
do you remember always seeing it
there'
SC:Humm, no...no it was not always
there, I saw it about two or three
times.
DCF: OK. And it continues, obviously
there are some details about the van
and its description in case it would
be necessary to come back to this
statement. So during the week, you
played tennis with Gerry about three
times'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday,
it says here that you got on well,
that he communicated easily, he was
fun, he talked to you about golf
which was his favourite sport, that
he wanted to improve his tennis
during the week. On Sunday or Monday
he twisted his ankle, but managed to
keep on playing, and on Sunday
morning he only played tennis with
Kate, that you saw them both playing
sport and they passed by you at the
bar on the beach and this was Sunday
or Monday at about mid day.
SC: Mmm, mmm.
DCF: And you saw both Gerry and Kate
at the Tapas Bar on Sunday and
afterwards on Thursday in the
evening, apart from these occasions
you just saw them in passing at the
resort and you had no opportunity to
get to know Kate'
SC: No.
DCF: OK. Is there anything else that
you would like to comment on or talk
about in relation to the time that
you were in the resort before the
police, or before the disappearance
of Madeleine'
SC: In relation to the holiday or to
something strange that I remember'
DCF: Yes, is there anything in your
memory that you think could be
significant but that you didn't
mention before because you thought
it was a bit...
SC: No, no...until that moment it
was an extremely enjoyable holiday,
I think that we had already been at
other Mark Warner resorts and they
were more than a complex and because
of that all the people in the area
were Mark Warner tourists, here it
was different because we could meet
the same person two or three times a
day, others could spend three or
four days without seeing them
because some were staying at this
side and others on the other side
and so, you know...we were not...it
was not a large holiday centre but
this was reasonably normal.
DCF: OK. Do you agree with me
putting these questions now'
SC: Yes, that's fine, are they the
questions from the police'
DCF: Yes, from the way they are
written, I think they are all from
the Portuguese police.
SC: OK.
DCF: Because sometimes translations
are a bit different.
SC: OK.
DCF: However, I think there are no
questions from Gerry and Kate that
would be necessary to ask you, as I
have stated previously, there are
other interrogations where that was
necessary.
SC: Oh.
DCF: Fine, on what day between the
28th April and 3rd May did you meet
Gerry McCann and Kate Healy, I think
this has already been mentioned in
the statement that we have just gone
through.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: However I am going to read this
and you do not have to reply again.
How frequently would you meet up
between the 28th April and 3rd May
and once again we have just been
through this.
SC: From there onwards.
DCF: Oh yes, not from there, it was
even before Madeleine disappeared.
Did you see them with Madeleine and
the other two children'
.
SC: Humm...I don't remember what I
said in my statement, I am not sure
about this because when I think
about the past, and I know that he
was playing tennis and I imagine
something different, that's why...humm
I can't specify hours and dates.
DCF: Ok. If you can remember the
occasion upon which you saw them,
how was the children's behaviour'.
SC: Humm. I can't reply because I
was not concentrating on this type
of thing, that's why...hmmm, I
cannot even reply to this.
DCF: No, but I was thinking from the
point of view of common sense, after
the disappearance of Madeleine, any
doubt that you could have had.
SC: Oh, after the disappearance'
DCF: No, what I was thinking here
was that after her disappearance,
you would probably have reflected
upon whether you saw anything.
SC: Hummm... I remember talking to
Gerry, because I had to go and fetch
I*** and they were playing in the
small garden and he was (inaudible),
I***** and I thought it was Maddie,
I am not absolutely sure but, he
seemed to me to be a decent type, a
good father, affectionate with his
children, very easy to talk to, very
good with the children, with a
comfortable manner even when talking
to I**** about little things,
completely dedicated to the
children.
DCF: OK, I'm certain that if there
were anything strange in his
behaviour, you would certainly
remember that.
SC: Yes, certainly.
DCF: Did you see either of them in a
car'
SC: See either of whom'
DCF: I think this refers to the
McCann family, did you ever see them
in a car'
SC: Humm, during that week'
DCF: Mmm, mmm.
SC: I think not.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry on
the Thursday 3rd May, obviously this
was the day when Madeleine
disappeared already mentioned in
your statement.
SC: Yes, in the restaurant, yes.
DCF: Do you remember if you saw them
before the evening'
SC: Humm... I think that we played
tennis during the afternoon on
Thursday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I'm not certain, I remember that
it was on Thursday that there were
four individuals with whom we used
to share the tennis courts, and I
think that I mentioned this in my
statement, I would say that it was
on Thursday that we played tennis
and I think that this was what we
talked about in the Tapas bar.
DCF: OK, do you have any idea of
what time you played tennis with
Gerry'
SC: Humm... from two to four or from
two until any time in the afternoon,
I remember it coincided with leaving
the kids in the crèche and picking
them up.
DCF: OK, and it asks here what his
behaviour was like on Thursday, 3rd
May'
SC: His behaviour during the day or'
DCF: On all the occasions that you
saw him.
SC: Always very good.
DCF: When did you realise that
Madeleine had disappeared, you have
already said that it was on the
following day.
SC: On Friday morning.
DCF: And you took part in the
searches as you have already
described. Did you see Kate or
Gerald after Madeleine's
disappearance'
SC: Yes.
DCF: When'
SC: Hummm, the first time was when I
introduced Robert Murat to Gerry, I
think that he was alone at that
moment...humm, or Kate was there,
I'm not sure, but afterwards I saw
him on Saturday before returning
home, but thinking of the time on
Friday morning when I introduced
Murat, I think that I did not see
him again until Saturday.
DCF: OK and the next question is
what was their reaction and I think
this means their reaction to
Madeleine not being there'
.
SC: Destroyed, like any father or
mother would be.
DCF: At what time did you arrive at
the Tapas restaurant on 3rd May
(inaudible)'
SC: At seven, I think at seven, yes.
DCF: Yes and you say that Kate and
Gerald arrived at about half past
eight, what was the theme of the
conversation'
SC: I think it was just holiday
chat, I think that we talked about
our tennis and the good and bad
aspects.
DCF: And who else was at the
restaurant, well.... you have
already referred to this in your
statement.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry leave
the table before you'
SC: (Inaudible).
DCF: I think that this means the
coming and going of people during
the evening.
SC: Yes, I remember that people
would absent themselves
intermittently at different times,
but I did not know why.
DCF: no.
SC: But as we discovered later, it
was to check on the children.
DCF: And I imagine that your
attention was directed towards your
family and (inaudible).
SC: Yes, because we obviously had
our two with us and we were on this
side of the table, the single man
with three small children was here
and I****was playing with them, so
we were more or less a group if you
would like to call it that, of which
they were a part, I think that all
the ten members were there and some
of us would speak to others here and
on the other side of the table.
DCF: At what time did you leave the
Tapas bar'
SC: I think it was at about half
past nine.
DCF: I think that is what you said.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you were accompanied, you
replied that you were with your
children and your wife. Where did
you go afterwards, it says
here...before going back to your
apartment, can you describe the
route you took'
SC: Directly to the apartment.
DCF: Did you see anyone outside the
Tapas Bar or outside the apartments'
SC: If I saw anyone outside the
Tapas bar or, hummm.. on the way
home presumably'
DCF: Yes, is there anyone you
remember that night, did you see
anyone in the area'
SC: No.
DCF: At what time did you go to bed'
SC: Almost immediately, we put the
children to bed because it was
already quite late for them, humm...
about half past ten, yes, about half
past ten (inaudible).
DCF: And that's it, those were the
questions.
SC: OK.
DCF: So I would say there were no
surprises. Is there anything else
that you think we should talk about'
SC: Hummm, no I think that's all, I
spoke about Murat, hummm, about the
meeting, no there is nothing more to
add.
DCF: OK. Lets check with Eleanor to
see if we have missed anything.
DCF leaves the interrogation room.
DCF enters the interrogation room.
DCF: No and I cannot think of
anything else so we can close the
interrogation.
SC: Fine.
DCF: It is 11.10, although my watch
does not have numbers, so this is an
approximate time.
SC: OK. And the interrogation ends
here, I'm sure that Eleanor will
unplug the recorder in the next
room.
SC: Fine, ok.
DCF: Now we just need to write...the
CD stopped and began again showing
the time as 10.38.10.
Signature_________________________________
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