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RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No IM20A
Person Interviewed:
Fiona PAYNE
Number of Pages 55
Place of Interview:
Force Headquarters Enderby
Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:10/04/08
Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 0855 hours
Time Concluded: 1025 hours
Duration of Interview: 90 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s)
DC 1485 MESSIAH
Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present
None
Tape counter times
Person speaking
Text
00.00.04
1485
'Okay. The machine is now recording which means this interview
is being video recorded, okay. The date is the third, sorry, the
date is the tenth of April two thousand and eight and I make the
time by my watch coming up to eight fifty-five on that morning,
alright''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'We are at an interview room in Force Headquarters in
Leicestershire Police. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I work at
Leicestershire Major Crime Team. Could you introduce yourself
please, your name and date of birth and where you live''
Reply
'Yeah, my name is Fiona PAYNE, my date of birth is twenty-ninth
of August nineteen seventy-two and I live at eighxxxxxxx
1485
'Thank you. The purpose of you being here Fiona is an incident
relating to the holiday in Praia Da Luz last year or
specifically May the third'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'But I understand that you went out prior to May the third''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'And you came back after May the third''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
00.01.03
1485
'Alright. It is what we call a significant witness interview, in
other words, you are a witness'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'So, you know, there will be no challenging questions, they will
be all open questions'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'Take as much time as you need to answer the questions and I
will ask you to answer the questions in their entirety, anything
you can remember, you know, try and exhaust it if you can'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Because then it eliminates me coming back and asking you more
questions'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Alright''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'As I say, we are working at your pace and I will certainly
listen to you, everything you say. My colleague is making notes
in the monitoring room and he will be bringing to my attention
if there is anything I have missed or, you know, he wants you to
cover, okay''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'And, as I say, the reason for these interviews is we have been
asked to facilitate this by the Portuguese Authorities,
alright''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Are you happy with that so far''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And, as I say, we work in what we call a cognitive interview
basis, what that means is, you know, we try and put you back at
the time that you, you know, that we are referring to, to see
what you can remember, alright''
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.02.08
1485
'How we are going to start the interview, I am going to do it, I
am just going to do it in sort of phases to try and help you
remember'.
Reply
'Right'.
1485
'Sort of chronological order if you like'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'There will be some questions that the PJ have asked us to speak
to you about'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And there are questions that the McCANN family has asked us to
talk to you about, alright''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'But mostly they will be questions based on what you tell me'.
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'And, you know, it is all nice and fluid, alright''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Okay. So I will ask you first of all to tell me a bit about
yourself and your family''
Reply
'Okay. Erm, erm, I'm thirty, I'll work that out actually, I'm
thirty-five years old. I work as an Anaesthetist at Leicester
and Leicester Registrar. I'm married to David PAYNE. We have got
two children, Scarlet who is the youngest who is, who will two
next month and Lily who is four in August. You know, we have a
fairly uneventful life really, we are quite, before the third of
May, very happy, you know, worked hard, but enjoyed holidays
and, you know, always made specific time to take holidays as a
family. Erm, we have a very good base of friends in Leicester
who we see a lot of, we make a lot of time for. A lot of the
people I knew them, who have trained with us and we've done
house jobs with and, erm, so friends, you know, are a big part
of our lives'.
00.03.35
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, I don't know what else to say'.
1485
'What is it you do for a living''
Reply
'I'm an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different
skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals,
doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care
unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation.
So, yeah, it's quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I
enjoy it'.
1485
'And how long have you been'.
Reply
'Erm, I've been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm,
in Leicester'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah, and since I've had the children I work part-time sort of
three days a week, yeah'.
1485
'Good. Okay. I want to refer now to your holiday, alright'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What I want you to try and do is to, from the moment that the
holiday was suggested, in other words, who suggested the
holiday'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Because I understand that it was booked by yourselves''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What I want you to do is, how the holiday came about'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Who suggested it. Who booked it'.
Reply
'Umm'.
00.04.48
1485
'Go through the whole process and stop at the holiday day'.
Reply
'Okay. Erm, I think the idea had first come about really back,
erm, in the previous year. Erm, I'd been on holiday with Dave,
erm, and our children, with Matt and Rachael and their child,
Grace, and Russ and Jane and their two children and we'd been to
Greece for a week. Erm, it wasn't a MARK WARNER, it was, erm, I
can't remember which company it was with, but it was a very
small holiday, erm, environment, where you sort of had all the
walled off area with a few villas and a shared pool and a
restaurant, erm, and we had a great time and we've all got very
young children and the kids had a great time. So the, the idea
was sort of seeded, you know, that it would be nice to do a
similar thing again. We'd also been on the year before a kind
of, another group villa holiday with friends, Kate and Gerry
being, erm, one of that group. So we just found with young
children it was a really nice way of, of having a holiday. So it
was our suggestion I think, erm, January time, it was just after
Christmas, erm, you know, I'd just gone back to work, I was
going back to work in March and just wanted something to sort of
look forward to. Erm, and the others, again Jane and, erm,
Russell and Matt and Rachael had been on MARK WARNER holidays
before and had really enjoyed it as had Dave and I. So the idea
of a MARK WARNER holiday sort of came up then really, thinking
oh that would be great with the kids and it would also the
adults some time to do some sports, we're all quite sporty,
we're particular into sort of water sports and others into
tennis, so we thought well, you know, it would be a nice, a nice
holiday. Erm, Dave's idea was Portugal. Erm, I'd never been to
Portugal before and he'd been, erm, at least once before
(inaudible), erm, a few years ago with his sister and he, he was
always very keen to go back. Erm, and I hadn't been, it sounded
nice, so we sort of looked at the Portugal website and thought
well it's good flight times for the kids, erm, it was quite
early on in the season there so we were sort of in two minds
whether it might be warm enough, et cetera. But, but spoke to
others, erm, at that point I think, erm, we put it to, I think
they were the only four, erm, three families we put it to really
and Jane and Russell were very keen immediately as were sort of
Matt and Rachael and Kate and Gerry were a bit undecided. Erm,
and this always haunts me, erm, because Kate, huh, what had she
said, when I was sort of twisting her arm really, she was
unsure, I think Gerry was immediately quite keen, erm, to come
and Kate had said, when I rang up, she said 'I don't know why
I've just got an uneasy feeling about it'. And I don't know why
she said that, I don't think she even knows, I never mentioned
it to her since, but she said, you know, that was it really, but
Gerry was so keen that she just sort of thought okay let's go
for it. And I think also they'd booked quite a few other breaks
around that time so they were less keen to come'.
00.08.03
1485
'That is Gerry and Kate''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah. Erm, and then on, erm, they booked it, we booked it, erm,
I can't remember whether that was end of January, beginning of
February, that sort of time. Erm, and following booking it,
sorry, if I backtrack a bit. We'd all been on MARK WARNER
holidays, erm, in Greece, erm, I don't think anyone had been
anywhere else in Europe, but all those MARK WARNER holidays had,
were very much the same, erm, different resorts but the same
sort of layout, the same hypothesis of, you know, having kid
time and adult time'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'They all offered a babysitting service. When Dave and I went we
didn't have children, but we were very aware, we met lots of
couples that were using the babysitting ser, baby listening
service, erm, where, you know, somebody goes, goes round the
rooms and listens at the door for any, any children crying, erm,
and then if they hear any crying they'll come and fetch you and
you've told them where you are. So we were very familiar with
that ethos of MARK WARNER and we assumed that the Portuguese one
operated the same way and in the brochure it sold itself the
same way as all the others. And it was only after booking that I
specifically went through and said 'Well it doesn't actually
mention the baby listening service on this one' and I rang up to
check, because that was a big part, you know, we, we wanted to
be able to have the social aspect of, of a holiday going away in
a group and, plus, at that point, they couldn't, erm, they, they
said 'Oh it's a bit more spread out and we can't put you all
together in the same block' and that again was a bit annoying if
they didn't have the baby listening service, so I'd rung up
specifically to find out about this and was actually a bit
annoyed when they said 'Well actually this doesn't operate a
baby listening service', because I don't think we would have
booked it had we known that'.
00.10.04
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Erm, so, but then I made the point and Dave had lots of emails
with them saying 'Well if you can't, if you're not doing that I
feel your brochure is misleading and we would like all our
apartments to be at least together if you can't', you know, 'if
you're not offering that can you at least guarantee that'. And
there was a lot of emailing to'ing and fro'ing before about
this, erm, maybe me being a bit difficult, I don't know. Erm,
but, you know, as it was altered, they did manage to put us all
close together as a group. Erm, so, you know, we thought well in
the evenings we could at least get them to bed and with our baby
monitors we can at least sort of have a drink together on, on a,
on a balcony and still be all together, you know, looking after
the children, so that was our plan before going really, that's
what we'd do. Erm, other than booking it I'.
1485
'Where was it booked, was it booked in shop or was it booked
over the Internet''
Reply
'Yeah, it was booked on-line'.
1485
'And was there a brochure that showed the holiday''
Reply
'We had a brochure through the, through the post'.
1485
'Yeah. And who was instrumental in the booking''
Reply
'Dave I think did the actual on-line, but it was, it was both of
us. I'm trying to think if anybody booked for themselves. I
think, I think all of it. I, I have a feeling Kate and Gerry
might have booked their part. Dave will probably remember more.
I know we definitely booked for Matt and Rachael and handled
their money and Russ and Jane we handled their money. I have a
feeling, we probably booked it for Kate and Gerry but I think
they paid, you know, we didn't pay for them, I think Gerry paid
directly. As I say, Dave did the actual booking and he might
remember more about that'.
00.11.55
1485
'Okay. And where did you fly from''
Reply
'Erm, East Midlands'.
1485
'And who was on the flight''
Reply
'Erm, we flew, we organised, erm, our own flights, because
obviously Matt and Rachael and Jane and Russell are South and
nearer London and the actual MARK WARNER flights were from
London, we felt, with our children being the age they were and
the flight times it was just going to be a nightmare, erm,
getting up, you know, really early in the morning and getting
down to London, so we opted to organise our own flights from,
you know, our regional Airport. Erm, so we got some money off
the price, again it was a lot of emailing about that as well,
I'd forgotten that, but, erm, yeah, they, they gave us a certain
amount of money off the holiday, erm, to allow us to arrange our
own transport. So, erm, Gerry had booked a local taxi firm from
around the Rothley area, I don't know where he was from, erm, to
pick us all up from Kate and Gerry's house and Dave and I just
travelled over the morning we flew. Erm, we took the taxi from
their house and we all went in a big sort of minibus minicab
together'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And we flew together. And at the other end we'd arranged, Gerry
had arranged, erm, transport to pick us up, erm, at FARO and
take us to the MARK WARNER. So we, we all arrived separately to
the other group, they'd arrived a bit earlier'.
1485
'Okay. What time was your flight''
Reply
'Tut, phew'.
1485
'Can you remember''
Reply
'It was morning. Erm, I remember being up early. Tut, I'd guess
around ten o'clock, something like that. I, I really can't
remember'.
00.13.36
1485
'And what about the flight itself, was it eventful, did you talk
to anybody else other than your party''
Reply
'Erm, tut, no, I think it was pretty uneventful, I mean, I don't
recall really speaking to anybody else. I was sat with Scarlet
who was, you know, (inaudible), my mum and Dave and then Gerry
and Kate were sort of in front and I think we occupied three
rows between us. Erm, there was a lot of seat hopping between
the kids, but pretty much they were all well behaved and, you
know, we didn't, we didn't really chat to anybody else that I
recall'.
1485
'Okay. So just tell me who was actually in your party when you
were on the plane''
Reply
'Myself, Dave, my mother, erm, our two children, Lily and
Scarlet, Kate and Gerry and their three children, Madeleine,
Sean and Amelie and that was it'.
1485
'Okay. So when you get to FARO'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'You said that you were picked up''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Any issues at the Airport prior to coming out to your
transport''
Reply
'Erm, no, well we had a, erm, a sort of discussion about car
seats, whether they'd booked the right car seats for the kids,
erm, and I think, as it was, I think Madeleine didn't have a, a
booster seat. Erm, but, no, no, it was all fairly straight
forward, we arrived and though, got picked up, I don't remember
there being any issues'.
1485
'Okay. We move on then to the actual transfer. How long did that
take''
Reply
'It was about I think an hour and a half. I think an hour and a
half, two hours, something like that'.
1485
'Quite a long time. A long journey'.
Reply
'Yeah, well I think the kids were exhausted and they sort of
slept and we had, I think it was an hour and a half, it's things
like that I, I honestly, find it hard to recall. It was
certainly, it was a good length journey, yeah'.
00.15.47
1485
'Okay. So when you get to your resort'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'Tell me about when you get to the resort and, you know, the
booking-in procedure, where you eventually, where your apartment
was, what number it was, tell me all about the, you know, your
intro''
Reply
'Yeah, we arrived, erm, at the sort of main reception area, got
everybody out, I think the men went in to do the actual
booking-in, I remember just standing out with Kate outside with
all the baggage and the children, erm, you know, so it's either
both Dave and Gerry or just Dave went in and, erm, and booked us
all in. then we had to wait for the sort of MARK WARNER bus to
pick up and take us to the apartments, there was a bit of a wait
there, about fifteen minutes or so and then, yeah, a chap came
with a minibus and we all sort of piled in with all the luggage
and he took us to the apartments. This sounds ridiculous, but I
can't even remember the number of the apartment I was in. Erm, I
can't remember. But we were on the second floor, so we were one
up, everybody else was on the ground floor. Erm, and we were the
only ones that had, had booked to have a two bedroomed
apartment. Erm, I think Matt and, erm, Russ and Jane had only
booked a one bedroomed one but they actually did get a two
bedroomed one. So whether that was because of, you know, and
that made us one floor up, I don't know. So we had a balcony and
we had a slightly bigger apartment. Erm, because of that our
apartment seemed to be the meeting point for lunchtimes and
things like that, just because it was bigger and had a view, a
better view than the others. Erm, the others were all ready
there, i.e. Matt and Rachael and Russ and Jane, they arrived a
couple of hours before us, erm, it might have even been longer,
I'm just trying to think of the time, it was certainly sort of
nearer teatime by the time we got there and I think they'd
arrived somewhere lunchtime, so they'd already had a bit of an
afternoon there. Erm, and then when we got there we'd all sort
of sat out on our balcony for a bit and just had a drink and a
catch up, erm, with all the kids. Erm, tut, and then I think,
I'm trying to think where we ate the first night, I think we all
went to the Millennium Restaurant, erm, which had a sort of kids
super and that was certainly sort of, sort of early evening, I
can't remember whether it was six or seven, that sort of time, I
remember the kids being very tired, erm, but we all trooped
across and had a massive table, you know, overtook the
Restaurant, erm, that was the only night that we ate there, erm,
mainly because it, it was a bit of a walk and certainly with the
younger kids it, you know, imagine we're having to pick them up
and put them down and they're wanting to walk, it just took ages
and it was quite sort of late for the children, they were sort
of not behaving particularly well and just very tired and wanted
to go to bed, so it wasn't a great success. Erm, tut, and then I
think, you know, once we, the following day we got more to grips
with the layout of the place, erm, and the other places you
could eat, we sort of saw the Tapas Bar and that well that looks
ideal, you know, to eat, because, you know'.
00.19.26
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'It was right across form the apartments. Erm, so I think it was
the second night we tried to book in there but we couldn't
because it was fully booked, then we realised, you know, you
had, a lady who was taking the bookings said 'Oh, you know,
you've really got to book first thing in the morning, it gets
really busy'. Erm, so the following morning, I don't, I don't
know who it was, I think it was Rachael who sort of got in early
and booked us in for that night. I don't know whether it was
that day or the following day she'd asked if, if there was any
chance of just booking us in for the whole week, because it was
so close and so much more convenient that it would have been
ideal for us, and I think she was a bit reluctant, but, you
know, said she'd do that. Erm, so from there on, well we didn't
really think much more, more about it really, it seemed to be a,
our routine, we all had our own sort of fixed routine from quite
early on and not, not everybody's was the same, but, you know,
generally, erm, everybody, but Kate and Gerry and their
children, sort of would go to the Millennium for breakfast, for
a buffet breakfast, erm, we'd all be at slightly different
times, but, generally, you know, you'd see someone else there in
the morning for breakfast. All the kids were booked into their
relevant kids clubs, erm, Scarlet was the only one that was in
the baby cr'he and that was kind of next door to where Madeleine
and Ella were in the sort of older kids club and that was near
the main reception. So after lunch I generally, after breakfast,
sorry, I generally walked with Scarlet to the baby club, erm,
with or without either Jane, Russell, Kate, erm, I'd sometimes
meet Kate or Gerry dropping Madeleine off there, erm, and then
Dave would take Lily over to the kids club which was back near
the, behind the Tapas Bar area'.
00.21.20
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, and then after that we, Dave and I had booked in for a
whole week of either, sort of alternate ski, erm, water sports,
one day would be wind surfing, the next day sailing. Erm, so
we'd sort of meet up on the beach after dropping the kids off
for, for our lesson. And, generally, the others had booked
different things. Some of them had booked some sort of, to do
some tennis lessons or, Kate and Gerry were doing tennis, Jane
was doing some tennis and I think she'd booked some wind surfing
as well. Erm, so everybody had their own thing for the morning
really. And then, erm, come lunchtime we'd pick them up, pick
the kids up and meet back at the, at our apartment and,
generally, I think, every day, we fed the kids in our apartment
and usually Matt and Rachael came, would come up and Russ and
Jane were there and the kids and usually Kate and Gerry had
theirs in their apartment, mainly because their, they just found
it easier'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, with the three of theirs. Erm, I'm trying to think if they
came up earlier on in the week, I don't, I think they might
have, might have had the odd lunch, but, on the whole, they'd
sort of, they did their own thing at lunchtime. I think for us
we were, all our children were still having sort of afternoon
sleeps, erm, so we'd stay at the apartment after lunch, get the
kids down and just sit on the balcony and read while the kids
had a nap and then, erm, when they got up we'd, you know, go for
a walk to the beach or play by the pool, but they just went to
the kiddie care for the morning only (inaudible). Erm, so, yeah,
the kids teatime, I think that was around, it was quite early,
half four I think, five o'clock, erm, that was another sort of
meeting point of the day really, where the cr'he would organise
the tea and that was sort of outside the Tapas area, erm, and
generally all of us would meet for that, all the kids had tea
together. Erm, and usually after they'd had tea, we'd just have
another bit of run around with them in the play area, there was
a sort of children's playground just by the Tapas Bar as well,
so they just sort of played there and that was next to the
tennis courts and most evenings they'd have some sort of tennis
event on and so a lot of us would, erm, partake in a bit of
tennis while, you know, take it in turns looking after the kids
and the kids would watch the tennis. Erm, that's what we did
every night, then we'd all go back, put the kids down to bed,
erm, it was generally quite late by the time they'd all gone to
sleep and were all quiet and once they were quiet we'd, erm,
meet at the Tapas and I think it was booked for half eight every
night, erm, we were usually late, I think everyone will say
that'.
00.24.21
1485
'Been told'.
Reply
'Yeah, yeah. Erm, but it worked really well and, you know,
everybody was checking, had their own sort of, I mean, we didn't
really formally discuss what everybody was doing, we just all
felt it was fine to sort of operate our own baby listening
service, I guess that's what we thought we were doing, what
every MARK WARNER holiday we'd been on before did. Erm, tut, we
didn't, Dave and I and my mum didn't because we, we brought our
baby monitor, which worked, we'd tested it, it's a digital
monitor so it's offering, erm, continuous monitoring of sound
every second and it alarms if it loses contact or anything, so
on the first day we'd sort of tried that by the, you know, by
the Tapas Bar and it worked, so we didn't even go back and check
our children, we took the monitor out, erm, and very much felt
we were doing what we do at home really, you know, putting them
to sleep and listen, if they cried we'd hear. Erm, the others
had, you know, decided they were sort of going back every twenty
minutes, erm, and checking on their own children. I think, on
the whole, I wasn't really aware of people cross checking each
other's children, although on the night and previous nights
there would have been the odd occasion where somebody was, was,
was going and saying 'Oh I've listened in at your door and your
kids are fine' or 'I've checked on yours and they're fine', so
there was a bit of that going on, but, on the whole, people
checked their own children. Erm, and, again, on the actual night
Madeleine was taken, that was, was very much different, I think,
to, to previous nights, in that, there was probably more cross
checking that night'.
00.26.07
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Erm, as it happens'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Erm'.
1485
'Dur'.
Reply
'Sorry'.
1485
'During this interview, when you are giving me a recall or a bit
of a, you know, telling me all about what has happened'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'I will occasionally ask you to go back'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'So don't be frustrated by 'Well I've already answered that''.
Reply
'No, that's fine, yeah'.
1485
'And what I meant to say at the beginning as well, there may be
a lot of times where you have been asked these questions
before'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'But, you know, I will ask you to repeat certain things'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Just for my benefit so I can be fair to my'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'My own interview notes and just to make sure that I understand,
you know, your recalling'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.26.44
1485
'Take you back, when you first got there'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'You said that you couldn't remember your apartment number''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Can you describe, when you look, presumably it is a, you had a
pool view, did you''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So tell me who was where within your block''
Reply
'My block, well as you, I mean, do you know the layout of the
apartments, there's, erm, a sort of covered area with the
stairwell in it, which is, is the front entrance I suppose, we
were up the stairwell. erm, and as you came out the stairwell we
were just sort of, the door was a bit over to the left, erm, of
the block. Erm, the others directly below us, erm, would have
Jane and Russell and to the left of them, as you look at the
front of the apartments, was Matt and Rachael and, I'm trying to
think, I think there was one in between Matt and Rachael and
Kate and Gerry, but it was, I don't know whether anyone was in
there'.
1485
'Would it help if I got you to do a little bit of a plan, would
that help''
Reply
'Yeah, I mean'.
1485
'If you just do an overall block and then section it and then
try and describe where they, where everybody else's apartments
were in relation to yours'.
Reply
'I mean, erm, it's quite a long block'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, take that as the stairwell, my drawings aren't very good.
We were up on the first floor. Do you want me to draw two''
00.28.23
1485
'Well the pool was there and which side is'.
Reply
'The pool is here'.
1485
'Yeah, I understand that now, yeah'.
Reply
'The Tapas Bar was there'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, our apartment, it's probably looking in sort of this area,
so if I make this the first floor'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Our apartment will be sort of that sort of, sorry, I'm having
to put the stairs over here. Erm, so our, that was our balcony
sort of really looking straight at the Tapas Bar'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, and then, I'm trying to think, Jane and Russell, I have to
think, as I look over the balcony, actually, because I think
Jane and Russell were slightly to the right because we could see
all their gardens and floors from our balcony. I'm just trying
to envisage, their apartment must have been pretty much beneath
us but slightly spilling over to the right, I think you could
just about see their garden from one of the sides. I think Jane
and Russell were about there, that's the ground floor, and Matt
and Rachael to the left of them and I think there was another
one or two apartments in between, I can't be sure about that,
but certainly Kate and Gerry were on the end and then we could
see into their garden from our balcony'.
1485
'Okay. And I take it your mum was in this apartment with
yourselves''
Reply
'She was in our apartment, yeah, she had a, a fold down bed,
but, erm, she just slept in the living, in the living room all
the time on the fold down bed'.
1485
'Do you recall seeing any other, was there any other apartments
being occupied, on the first floor, for example, with
yourselves''
Reply
'Yeah, erm, again, I get mixed up sort of after Madeleine went
missing than before really, because I suppose we were more
conscious of people after and it very much felt that there
weren't may other people there the week we were holidaying. Erm,
and I don't know whether that's partly because when you go in a
group you're not really looking outside your group, whereas
maybe if you were just on your own as a family you're more aware
of other people. Erm, but I'm trying to think on the first
floor, I don't, it seemed extremely quiet, I can't say I was
really aware of any other families that we came across or met or
talked to on that first week, erm, although I'm sure there were
apartments occupied'.
00.31.01
1485
'So, primarily, you didn't speak to anybody else other than your
party''
Reply
'No, I mean, I actually think that Dave and I were quite sort of
insular really that first week and, you know, I know, through
the tennis, the other couples met other, got more friendly with
other people on the MARK WARNER holiday, erm, whereas, you know,
we didn't really meet that many people to be honest, we were the
only ones doing the sailing, there was, I think there was one
other chap, who I can't even remember his name, he was doing the
sailing, but, but it was pretty much just Dave and I for the
lessons, it was that quiet, erm, there just weren't that many
people being, getting involved in other things really, I suppose
the tennis was more sociable'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, so, no, I don't recall'.
1485
'In relation to your rooms, were they allocated before you
arrived'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Or were they allocated at the desk when you got there''
Reply
'No, I had the feeling they were allocated before we'd arrived.
We didn't know where they were or the position of them, we'd
asked that they were together, but I, I'm assuming they were,
they were pre-allocated, because of the emails that were going
on'.
00.32.03
1485
'Yeah. And when you got there was there any resistance in
relation to being allowed to have your apartments altogether''
Reply
'No, I mean, there was nothing said when we arrived there about
any of the (inaudible) before, erm, no'.
1485
'Okay. You mentioned about the baby listening facility''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Did the resort have or did the apartments have, you know, the
facility for baby listening''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'They didn't''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'And I understand, from what you said earlier on, that you took
your own''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What sort of equipment have you got''
Reply
'It's a PHILLIPS digital monitor, I couldn't tell you the model,
it's just, well it was the latest that had come out when Scarlet
was born, because we got a new one because our old one that we
had with Lily didn't work, so, yeah, it's a digital, a digital
monitor'.
1485
'And who would have possession of that in, you know, from a
day-to-day, well sort of from the evening''
Reply
'Well we only needed it. I did, I had sole possession of it. It
was sat with me'.
1485
'And how does it generally work, do you have one''
Reply
'You have a base unit which we put, sort of Scarlet was in, erm,
one room and, erm, at right angles to Lily, and we'd left them
asleep with the door open, and the monitor's in between the two
rooms, erm, plugged in, you then have your remote, erm, which,
you know, you also have to turn on, erm, you know, it has, erm,
tut, an alarm that will alarm if it's not in contact with the
base unit, a very loud alarm, erm, and you can set the volume
and the sensitivity that you want, so how much noise you want it
to pick up and alarm for, erm, and if you have it on full
sensitivity it just picks up everything, it's in constant
contact with the noise in that room and that's what we had it
on, full sensitivity and full volume'.
00.33.59
1485
'Okay. And did you use it every night''
Reply
'We used it every night'.
1485
'Every night. Did anybody else use it''
Reply
'Our monitor''
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Did anybody else in the party have a monitor''
Reply
'Russ and Jane brought their monitor and they had it with, I was
aware Jane had her monitor with her, but I don't think it was a
digital one and it wasn't very reliable, which his why they
didn't rely on it. They had it with them, erm, but Jane had to
sort of lift it up above the level of the hedge to actually get
a signal. Erm, so they had it with them and I don't know how
much they really used it, but they, they were still doing what
everyone else was dong and going back and checking'.
1485
'Okay. I will come onto the relay checking later'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'I will ask you to try and recall as much as you can about the
relay'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And I appreciate that, you know, you didn't have to do it'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'But, you know, try and remember. In relation to your
apartment'.
Reply
'Umm'.
00.34.55
1485
'Can I ask you to get your sketch head on again''
Reply
'Yeah, I'm a terrible drawer'.
1485
'Just give me a general layout of your apartment please''
Reply
'Erm, okay, so this is the front door, erm, yeah, as you walk in
the front door, there's the sort of kitchenette area on the
right, it had a sort of hole in the wall so you could see
through into the dining area, that was a dining table and
there's a window there, erm, there was French doors just to the
side of the table there, sliding, that opened out onto the
balcony, which was quite large, and there's a table and chairs,
erm, then the layout of the sitting room, so that's a bedroom,
one, I'm just trying to think how it was laid out, it must have
been like that actually, so that's a bathroom there, that's the
bigger bedroom, bedroom one, and there was another bedroom there
and then this was a sort of communal living area, so it had a
telly there and there was a sofa there, I think there was
another one there and a chair, I think it was just a chair and a
table. That's the sort of layout'.
1485
'Okay. So just to talk through it then. You have got the main,
the front door here''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'To the right is a kitchen'
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And what was that, sorry''
Reply
'The dining room table'.
1485
'Dining room table'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'To the left you have got bedroom two''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Who slept in bedroom two''
Reply
'That was Lily, she had a cot just there, there was Lily and
there was a window'.
00.37.46
1485
'Okay. And bedroom one''
Reply
'Bedroom one, there was a big double bed, Dave and I, and
Scarlet was in the corner in a travel cot'.
1485
'Okay. Where did your mum sleep''
Reply
'Mum slept in the living room, there was a sofa bed which she
sort of pulled down and generally put that there I think'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Yeah, at night-time'.
1485
'And which room would the intercom be in''
Reply
'The intercom was actually placed literally in between the two,
this is the door to the bedroom there and it was placed there'.
1485
'On the floor''
Reply
'Yeah, on the floor, just between the two rooms'.
1485
'And what about the, how did you leave the doors''
Reply
'We left them just slightly open'.
1485
'When you say 'slightly', sorry to be intricate here, but at
forty-five degrees do you think or less than forty-five or
half''
Reply
'A bit less, probably, probably about a third of the way open'.
1485
'Okay. And that's both doors, is it''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Okay. Thank you. What I will ask you to do later on is
exhibit, referring to that, is exhibit those and, you know, we
will put a label on them and we will retain it, okay''
Reply
'Yeah, okay'.
00.38.54
1485
'So other people will see your drawings. Okay. So let's talk
about, what I want to try and do now is just try and summarise.
The day that you got there was the twenty-eighth of April''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'What I want to try and do now, if you can summarise Saturday
to Wednesday, try and summarise it. When I say 'summarise',
because you mentioned earlier on that there was a lot of, the
relaying occurred when you went out''
Reply
'You mean the evenings''
1485
'Yeah, well talk me through your day, because you said that you
booked in for wind surfing''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'Tell me what you did Sunday''
Reply
'Well, I mean, this is, phew, you know, where it's very hard to
pick out each, each day now, erm, I probably had more idea then,
and I don't know how much of that will be in my first interview,
that might be something that's been said, but, huh, I think
because every day was very similar'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'As I say, it's hard to pick out one day different to the
other. There were, there were a couple of different days where
we did something slightly different, erm, tut, but, generally,
as I say, on the whole, every, I mean, every morning we went to
Millennium, erm, and that was, generally, sort of between eight
and nine in the morning when the kids were up and dressed, erm,
and we'd be ready to take them straight to the kiddie care
straight from, from breakfast, erm'.
1485
'Do you know who their Nanny was or who looked after them''
Reply
'Well Lily, yeah, I don't know who her, I don't, the, you know,
key workers were any more, I can't remember the names. Erm,
yeah, Lily went to the toddler club and Evie and Grace and Sean
and Amelie were, were all in the same room. Erm, you know, I
knew some of the names of the Nannies there but I don't who her
key worker was. Erm, and Scarlet, again, I can't remember the
name of the girl who was, who was looking after Scarlet. Erm,
there was only kind of two babies in the baby room and about
three, huh, carers, again, it was very quiet. Erm, so, you know,
once they were dropped off, as I said, we, we, I'd walked down
to the beach on my own and meet Dave there, erm, for our lesson.
Erm, I can't remember which started first, I think the wind
surfing was on the, would have been on the Sunday and then it
sort of alternated each day between sailing and wind surfing.
But because of the weather conditions, erm, they weren't very
good for wind surfing, so we ended up doing, erm, I think on the
actual Thursday we should have been doing wind surfing and we
actually did sailing, because there was no wind, but then it was
very rough. Erm, so that, you know, as I say, things did'.
00.41.48
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Did vary, erm'.
1485
'The Sunday was obviously the day after you got there''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So what was the weather like, for example''
Reply
'I'm just trying to think'.
1485
'That probably might put you, that might put you back in it a
little bit more there'.
Reply
'The weather wasn't very good, on the whole, and it was quite
cold, erm, and there wasn't a lot of wind at all for the, in the
mornings for the sailing, because it, and wind surfing, it was
all a bit of a, a wash out. Erm, but, yeah, it was quite cold,
quite cloudy, it'd have spells of sunshine, but the weather
wasn't great those first sort of two days, two or three days.
Erm, it didn't rain or anything. And I can't really, huh, you
know, tell you more than that'.
1485
'You walked down to the beach, obviously for your lesson''
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.42.41
1485
'How long would that have taken and who did you walk with''
Reply
'I'd be on my own, having, having dropped Scarlet off, and
no-one else, other than Dave, was, erm, was going down for the
lesson, so, you know, I don't, I don't think I even saw him, met
him on the way'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'We sort of met down there. I was usually there first because
it was a bit closer'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, to the cr'he. Erm, but, no, I mean, it was always very
quiet, didn't, again, didn't really see many people, erm'.
1485
'What time would David have gone before you then, because you
say he is down there before you'
Reply
'No, I was generally there before him'.
1485
'You was there, sorry'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And when'.
Reply
'We'd leave breakfast at the same time with the kids'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But obviously he had to walk back to the Tapas Bar, which was
a bit further away from the beach, whereas I was walking to the
main reception and that was a bit closer, so once we dropped the
kids off, erm, you know, I'd generally be a bit ahead of him'.
1485
'Right. So subsequently you are down the beach together''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Was there any other member of your group at the beach''
Reply
'No'.
00.43.48
1485
'When you first go down''
Reply
'No, one of the days, I think, Matt did a bit of sailing one of
the days later on, it wasn't the Sunday, erm, I would guess
either the Tuesday or the Wednesday, erm, I can't remember which
morning, but he didn't have the lesson, he just wanted to take a
boat out, erm, so one of those mornings he, he did take, erm, a
catamaran out on his own'.
1485
'Try and put yourself there and try and remember how long you
think you stayed down at the beach on the first day, on the
Sunday'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'You know, now you have managed to remember that, you know, the
sailing conditions wasn't that good'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Try and remember how long you stayed down there, what time you
think you left''
Reply
'Yeah, I think the Sunday, the first day, we did go out on the
wind surfers and sort of battled through it a bit, but we were
cold and they didn't have full length wetsuits, I remember I
actually wanted to come in, because I was absolutely freezing,
erm, a bit before the end, because I think it ended at half
eleven, eleven, half eleven. Again, the times of this have just
dimmed with, with the period of time that's passed, erm, and it
all sort of depends on when the cr'he finishes. I suppose that
will all be known anyway. But, we, we generally tried to get out
of the water half an hour before the cr'he was due to finish and
then we'd just get dried and then obviously go and pick them up.
So I think that first Sunday we, we came out a bit earlier than
we, later on in the week, would have, because we were cold, and
just sort of dried off and sat there, but, and then would have
gone to pick the kids up, again, I'd generally go and get
Scarlet and Dave would then go and get Lily'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, and I think it finished at half eleven or twelve, that
sort of time. Erm, yeah, so that, that Sunday was slightly
different to the others, I think'.
00.45.41
1485
'What would you do after eleven then''
Reply
'Just, as I said, we'd just dry off, get the wetsuits washed
and put away'.
1485
'Pick the kids up''
Reply
'Pick the kids up'.
1485
'And then do what''
Reply
'And then go straight back to the apartment, erm, for lunch,
we'd feed the kids there'.
1485
'Did anybody else on that day, the first day, come to'.
Reply
'On the Sunday'.
1485
'Come to your apartment for lunch''
Reply
'Erm, I'm sure they did, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think every, I
think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the
apartment having lunch. Erm, and my mum generally was the
sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she'd
took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, erm, while we were
sort of sailing and stuff, she, she'd go to the Supermarket and
get loads of, loads of provisions in and she'd be making piles
of baguettes and, erm, yeah, and everyone would generally
descend on ours and demolish the lot. Erm, and, yeah, we just
all mucked in to cook for the kids, we generally tried to give
them a hot, a hot lunch and, you know, people would just donate
whatever was in their apartment'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So, yeah, I don't think Sunday was any different in that
regard, you know, we ate at ours'.
1485
'When the afternoon draws to a close and then we are going into
early evening'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Tell me about what you can remember about the early evening,
leading up to the time that you put your children to bed''
Reply
'On the Sunday''
00.47.11
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Phew, again, I, I can't remember specifically Sunday. Erm, all
I can say is, on the whole, we would just go down and play with
the kids. I mean, our kids would sleep until sort of half three,
often four o'clock, often we were getting them up a bit earlier,
walking them up just to have a bit of a playtime before the tea.
Erm, but we generally in the evening we would just go down to
the play area by the Tapas Bar. Erm, tut, and on a couple of, on
a couple of occasions we took them to the beach late afternoon
if the weather was nice and I couldn't tell you'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I know on the Thursday we did, that's what we did, and one of
the previous days we did that, erm, we took them to the beach,
and I couldn't tell you which day that was. I don't think it was
Sunday, I would have guessed around Monday, erm, I don't think
it was Sunday. Erm, because we fed, on that occasion, the times
we went to the beach, we fed them at the restaurant that was on
the beach. Erm, but I have a feeling on the Sunday, because that
would have been the first sort of full day if you like, I think
we did use the, erm, kids high tea, so we would have been at the
Tapas Bar to feed the kids'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'I can't, I'm sorry, I can't be more specific about which days
we did what, you know'.
1485
'Well it is a long time ago isn't it really'.
Reply
'And I think plus'.
1485
'Can only do your best'.
Reply
'I think what's confusing the issue is we were there for so
long after'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And every day was the same'.
00.48.46
1485
'The same'.
Reply
'I mean, you know, bar the odd one where you did something
different. But the, the routine, you know, was just, I mean, it
was groundhog day, it was, everyone said that at the time and I
think that's, it's just hard to'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'To go back before that, every day just starts to merge'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, but, yeah, that, I'd say more times than not we'd used
the kids high tea, there was one occasion, perhaps two, where we
didn't, where we fed them at the beach. Erm, on the Thursday I
definitely know we fed them at the beach on that day'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'A very clear one'.
1485
'So would from high tea then lead to prepare for bed''
Reply
'No, there would be a bit of, a bit more playtime really, erm,
you know, because kids tea was quite early, it was about five
o'clock, by the time they'd sort of finished, quarter past five.
Erm, tut, and then the, as I say, every night they had a tennis
sort of social event and it varied each night, they had women's
tennis, they had, erm, beat the instructors tennis, they had
where you had to choose an implement to, that the instructors
had to play with, you know, a book or something, so there was
always something going on by the tennis courts, of which we were
all quite keen to partake in. Erm, so as I sort of said earlier
really, we, we would sort of all be by the play area, playing
with the kids, and then some of us would go on and off the
tennis courts and, you know, we just sort of rotate a bit like
that. Erm, and I'm trying to think what time the tennis started,
I think it was about six o'clock, I think the slot was six until
seven every night and I can't remember which night was which
tennis. Erm, I think, I think the Monday or, I think the Monday
or the Tuesday was women's night, erm, the Wednesday I think was
the beat the instructors and Thursday was the men's tennis.
00.50.58
1485
'I know I am being persistent here'.
Reply
'I know'.
1485
'But I need to put you back on Sunday because I need the
chronological order through the week'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'I know that you say 'most days were the same''.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And, you know, every day sort of ran into the next virtually'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Would you have had a system'.
Reply
'For putting them to bed''
1485
'In relation to the children''
Reply
'Yeah, very much so'.
1485
'Tell me about'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'If your system is going to be the same every day'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Then tell me as early as you can in the holiday'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What you did in relation to the children'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Before you eventually went out to the Tapas''
Reply
'Yeah, I mean, our night-time was, I think, from the Sunday, it
was, it would be much the same. Erm, after the play area they
started to tire, erm, you know, around sort of half seven we
would, erm, go back and get them bathed, they'd have a bath
every night, get them ready for bed, have milk and a story and
straight to bed. Erm, depending on who was playing the tennis
depended on which two of us would go back, out of me, my mum and
Dave, to actually sort the kids out, we didn't always leave
altogether, but, erm, you know, as I say, it would be two out of
the three that would come back. Erm, on the Sunday, huh, as I
say, I can't remember who, out of the three of us, would sort
the kids. But, erm, if I knew what the tennis nights were, which
I'm sure MARK WARNER could find out, that would help actually,
because that would probably spark some memory'.
00.52.27
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, of what happened on those different nights. The, erm, you
know, our, our bath time and bedtime routine would usually take
sort of forty-five minutes and the kids would, would be in bed
sort of by quarter past eight, half eight. Erm, they were so
exhausted, erm, with everything that was going on, that they
were very good at going down. I mean, we were quite amazed that
week, you know, normally we'd have a bit of crying out of
Scarlet even, but, no, both of them would, were very good at
going off. And in terms of going down to the Tapas Bar, Dave
usually stayed in the apartment a bit longer than me and my mum,
erm, just to make sure that all was quiet before leaving the
apartment and Lily sometimes would sort of just chat to herself
a bit before going to sleep, so he'd just, erm, you know, and at
least on a couple of occasions, stayed behind a bit longer than
we did and I'd order a starter for him'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Then he'd toddle along, you know, when all was quiet'.
1485
'Did you actually play tennis on the Sunday''
Reply
'Huh, again, it would help to know what night it was'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I think we did, I think we all had a knock and I think even
the kids, erm, on one of the nights had a knock as well'.
00.53.47
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Ella and Madeleine were, you know, were joining in and, erm,
yeah, I mean, as I say, I just can't remember which night was
which. But I think, yeah, most nights we all, unless it was sort
of men's night, obviously the women didn't join in, but'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And for the women's night the men didn't join in. But, on the
whole, everybody kind of tended to have a bash'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Even if it was just for five minutes, erm'.
1485
'When you say 'all of us', was all of your group generally'.
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'Knocking about''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'At the tennis''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'I mean, I think every night we saw all of each other, bar the
Thursday, again, that was a different night'.
1485
'It was different'.
Reply
'In that Kate wasn't there with, with the three kids, because
we'd all done something different in the early evening, so we
were a bit later coming back to the Tapas Bar'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And, you know, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie were just
absolutely knackered, so, you know, so that was different, but
we'd, as I say, the day had gone differently, so'.
00.54.48
1485
'Okay. Are you alright to carry on''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Do you want a break or are you okay''
Reply
'No, I'm fine'.
1485
'We have been going for fifty-four minutes'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Okay. Let's talk about then the actual Tapas'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Because you mentioned in your earlier recall that when you got
there you needed, you had booked it at eight thirty''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Every night''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Tell me about, tell me as much as you can about why you chose
to stay in the Tapas or dined at the Tapas'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'I appreciate, you know, because the children are asleep or in
bed'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'But tell me the whole procedure regarding the Tapas. You got
there on the Saturday and you ordered the big table''
Reply
'Yeah, I think it, we hadn't really, as I say, well before
getting there we hadn't really realised what the layout of the
MARK WARNER was and where, where you, erm, because you had, you
had a free meal, you see, included and we didn't really realise
where you could use that. The first night, as I say, we went to
Millennium and that wasn't a great success, erm, just because of
the time, you know, for the kids, it was just too, too late for
them to be eating'.
00.55.52
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Because I don't think it started until sort of half six,
seven, the actual, you know, the food. Erm, so that wasn't, it,
you know, we were sort of thought well this isn't going to work
particular well sort of taking them there every night. Erm, and
so it wasn't really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort
of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. Erm, and I think,
you know, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were
kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back
garden, but a back garden, erm, and we just thought well that's
great, we can just sort of, you know, easily nip across and
check the children on a regular basis and, erm, everyone felt
sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that, and we
didn't really, there wasn't a lot of sort of humming and hawing
that went on over, over that. I mean, I had, I wasn't aware of
the decision to book it for the whole week, I think that had
just happened when, when Rachael went to see if it was available
for the, for the Sunday night and was told, you know, that you
had to sort of book ahead, erm, you know, it wasn't something
that we got together and pre-decided that that's what we should
do, it was just Rachael, I think it was Rachael that had done it
and we were all like 'Oh that's great, that's easy, we don't
have to worry about it any more, we'll just eat there every
night' and that was the last we thought about it'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'We just thought that was convenient and that would work'.
1485
'So you weren't actually instrumental in the planning of the
evenings entertainment, shall I say''
Reply
'No, no'.
1485
'It was just booked and then you just, obviously yourself and
David, went along with it'.
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
00.57.36
1485
'Because it was easy for'.
Reply
'It was just easy for, you know, we were happy with it, you
know we were very happy with that. And, as I say, there wasn't
more thought past that, that went into it'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'We just thought, oh that's great, we've got somewhere to eat,
it's easy, we could keep an eye on the kids, get them to bed
when they're tired and, erm, you know everyone's a winner
really, that's'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'That's what it felt like'.
1485
'Right. Okay. So Sunday was the first time you dined at the
Tapas then, was it''
Reply
'Yeah, I mean, just as I'm relaying that to you, I'm thinking,
does that fit in, because I was pretty sure we couldn't get, get
in, or maybe it was the Saturday we couldn't get in and that's
why we went to Millennium and it was the Sunday. I'm pretty sure
Sunday through we did eat at the Tapas Bar, so I think that's
the way it must have been, that Rachael had tried to get us in
on the Saturday but couldn't'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, because we certainly, the first night I remember
certainly we didn't eat there, at the Tapas'.
1485
'Okay. And in relation, proximity wise, how far away from your
apartment is the Tapas''
Reply
'As the, as the crow flies, from, you know, the balcony across
to the Tapas, I'd say it's about thirty metres, twenty-five
metres. Erm, to walk it you had to go out the front door, so'.
1485
'Refer to your map'.
Reply
'Yeah, I'll refer to the map. Erm, yeah, you had to sort of
come out this side, go down the steps, erm, there was a sort of
side path that went outside onto the road, erm, there was,
that's the road, yeah, you had to sort of go across the car
park, out into the road, erm, that's a path, sorry, my diagram
is not (laughs)'.
00.59.24
1485
'No, it's okay, it's fine, I can read it'.
Reply
'Erm, and then there was a sort of little porch entrance to the
Tapas area where there was somebody usually on the desk, then
you had to walk round through there and round there, so it was,
it was a longer way'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But as the crow flies it was very close'.
1485
'About thirty metres. Could you actually see the Tapas from
your apartment''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Could you actually see people in it''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And when you were sat at the Tapas could you see your
apartment''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What could you see of your apartment''
Reply
'Of the apartment, well you could see all the back of it, so
you could see the balcony, erm, the French doors and the window,
which would be that, erm, window, of our bedroom and that was it
really'.
1485
'And, generally speaking, when you went to dinner, this is just
a general question, how would you leave your apartment, sorry,
how would you leave the state of your apartment, doors,
windows''
Reply
'The windows, erm, to be honest, in Lily's room, we didn't ever
check the window. Erm, another thing that you think of. I mean,
when we arrived, we assumed it was sort of locked and closed and
the shutter was down. And I think we only ever sort of slightly
opened, it was one of these shutters where, erm, sort of graded,
erm, you can open it a little bit and it just opens up with a
few holes to let a little bit of light in but the whole shutter
is still actually down. And that's all we ever, we never opened
the shutter, we just, we'd open it a bit in the morning to let a
bit of light in and then shut it, erm, you know in, in the
night-time to the point where it would only have a very minimum
bit of light coming in'.
01.00.59
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Just so as you could sort of see the room'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But it was pretty dark. And the same in, erm, in the other
bedroom, we never completely opened the shutter'.
1485
'So is there shutters and windows''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So, what about the windows, did you open the windows''
Reply
'Never opened the windows. We never touched the windows, so we
never really opened the shutter all the way to open the windows
or, or even, as I say, check them. I guess we assume, assumed
they were locked'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Erm, I did after Madeleine went and they were locked, but'.
1485
'Right. And you say the only one that you used was the patio
quite a lot''
Reply
'Yeah, the French doors'.
1485
'The French doors'.
Reply
'They were always locked and secured'.
1485
'And locked'.
Reply
'And the front door was always locked and secured'.
1485
'Tell me, the door that you leave generally is the door leading
out onto the road, is it''
Reply
'To leave the apartment''
01.01.48
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah, there was only one door'.
1485
'In or out''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And what, just tell me about the security of that door''
Reply
'Erm, it had a sort of double lock, erm, mechanism, erm, so it
seemed, you know, it seemed very secure. Erm, and there was a
security light, they were all on a timer switch, I think if you
turned it on there was a light switch, you turned it on and it
would stay on for, I don't know, a minute or so, and then go off
automatically. And it seemed, when those lights were off, it was
very dark at night-time and it was, it wasn't very, I mean,
again, looking back, you sort of think, well it didn't feel very
nice at night-time, that side of the apartment, because it did
feel quite dark and, I think, the wind whistled through the
stairwell as well'.
1485
'So, to summarise, in the apartment you have got windows and
the shutters but you never actually opened either''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Only just, did you'.
Reply
'Only enough to get a little bit of light in'.
1485
'But did you actually have to lift the shutter then''
Reply
'No, it had a sort of web type, erm, type system, a pulley
system'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'That was very, it was quite hard actually to open them fully'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'You had to be quite strong'.
1485
'And how often would you open that, during the daytime or
evenings or''
Reply
'Erm, when we got up in the morning, we'd just say open it a
bit to let some light in and get ready. But, for us, in our
room, if you opened it full you, you know, you had people
looking at you so, so we never did that really, we sort of just
opened it, as I say, so that more holes were showing'.
01.03.24
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So, you know, it would be very, it'd be like its daylight, as
this room is, but it was never open, as I say, the bottom of the
shutter was never lifted fully up, erm, and the same for Lily's
room. And then when they went to sleep in the afternoon we just
obviously darkened the room again and open it again when they
woke up and back down again for bedtime, you know. But really we
didn't, we didn't have any reason to, to every open them fully'.
1485
'Yeah. Back to the Tapas night'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'The Sunday night. I know, like you say, I know this is
groundhog day'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'But you referred earlier on to the relaying of people going to
check their kids but you didn't have to''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'So try and put yourself back to the first night that you
actually dined at the Tapas'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And try and remember, if you can remember who actually started
to go to look at their children first, that it might trigger the
rest of your mind to, you know, the order'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'All I'm after really is order and times'.
Reply
'Umm'.
01.04.29
1485
'Or distance between'.
Reply
'Of the Sunday night''
1485
'Yeah. Distance between when people went to, you know'.
Reply
'I know that, I can only give a general feeling'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Because I've got no idea who went first and, to be completely
honest, I didn't at the time. Erm, but I'd say on, on the first
few nights it all seemed, erm, fairly well spaced, you know,
like people going together, that was just a feeling, a general
feeling that I'm giving you. Erm, whereas, again, that differed
on the Thursday night, in that, it seemed more, erm, out of,
people were more out of synch. But I think that's because we all
arrived at different times, whereas, generally, we were a bit
more on time at the beginning of the week'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, so, you know, people were going, you know, more sort of
nine o'clock, then it'd be half nine and, you know, I remember
people clock watching, erm, doing that. I didn't have any idea
of time, erm, I wasn't wearing a watch, I didn't have a mobile
and I wasn't going up to check our children'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So I can only say, you know, I was quite conscious other
people were doing that, erm, but I wasn't part of that. Erm,
but, you know, people were very stringent about getting, you
know, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went'.
1485
'Would you say that all of the group, bar yourself, generally
would go checking''
Reply
'Sorry, the group that were with me''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'What, you mean, in terms of some people going more than others
or''
1485
'Yeah, generally speaking'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
01.06.01
1485
'I mean, because you have got a party of nine, haven't you''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'Would all nine do the checking at some point''
Reply
'No, Dave and I and my mother never checked anybody'.
1485
'Sorry, minus yourselves, yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, I guess some people were doing more checking and it
tended to be the men doing, again, this is a feeling, it seemed
to be they did a lot more sort of upping and downing, erm, tut,
you know, than, than the women perhaps. Erm, I mean, Gerry and
Russell'.
1485
'Gerry and Russell''
Reply
'Yeah, I don't know, they, again, a feeling, is they probably
did a bit more checking than the girls did. Erm, I couldn't, you
know, I couldn't be more specific about that. Erm, you know,
there was, I'm trying to think if anyone was ill on the Sunday
night actually, because we had a bit of illness in the group as
well and there were nights, I think, every night there was
somebody who was sick actually. And I think Matt might have been
ill on, it was either Sunday or the Monday, erm, and, you know,
one of those nights he wasn't there for dinner. And then
Rachael, erm, wasn't there, I think that was the Wednesday
night, she was ill, Tuesday or Wednesday. So there were night
when, yeah, there was only eight of us at the table
(inaudible)'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'And obviously those nights the partner wouldn't be going back
to check because'.
1485
'They were in there'.
Reply
'They were already in there'.
1485
'So who do you think was ill then on the first night, sorry,
the second night''
Reply
'I think it was Matt actually, I think he was the first one.
Erm, he came down with a bit of diarrhoea or something'.
01.07.43
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Because I think they were blaming the sandwich on the plane,
so it must have been soon, soon after. Erm, yeah, and then, as I
say, Rachael, I felt that was, you know, more Tuesday or
Wednesday time, I don't think it was Monday'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'I think it was the night before. I think it was the night
before the Wednesday that she was'.
1485
'That Rachael was bad'.
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'So you think Matt was bad on the Sunday''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'So, other than Matt, everybody else was at the table''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And what sort of time did you all, because you said earlier on
that you were late''
Reply
'Yeah, generally we were a bit (laughs)'.
1485
'Why were you late every night''
Reply
'Because we're just always late (laughs), everyone will say
that, always late for everything. Erm, I don't know really,
we're always just a bit, a bit lax getting ready maybe'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah, I don't think we were always that late, but, as I say,
Dave usually did follow on, and I think me and my mum, on the
whole, were, you know, usually sort of between half past eight
and twenty to nine, we weren't outrageously late (laughs)'.
1485
'Would you say that the time that you went down on Sunday is
generally the same time that you went down every night''
Reply
'Erm, I was a bit later on the Thursday than normal because I
wanted to go for a run. Erm, so, yeah, that was more I think
sort of ten to, five to nine, it was, we were late that, that
night'.
01.09.17
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But usually, I think, as I say, we were probably the other
side of quarter to nine (laughs) getting down, between half past
and quarter to, but we were usually the last ones to be arriving
at the table'.
1485
'When the dads, you said'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Or the husbands if you like'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Would go and check. Cast your mind back and think, what was
the earliest time of the checking, was anything said or was any
observations made or any observations from the table''
Reply
'On the Sunday are you still on''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Phew, nothing that is remarkable, erm, that I can recall'.
1485
'Okay. We have laboured Sunday now, you generally can't
remember'.
Reply
(laughs)
1485
'Let's go into Monday. You say that every day generally would
follow the same pattern. So try and remember Monday, what was
different, what was Monday like' It's the day after Matt was
ill'.
Reply
'I mean, I think it was just the same again, you know, for us,
as a family, you know, we, none of us were inflicted by any
illness, we'd get up, go to breakfast and do the same again.
Erm, I can't remember, I'd be lying if I tried to tell you who
was at breakfast, you know, one day as opposed to another
really, I mean, you know, it was a large, a large group and
generally. All I can say is my mum generally didn't come to
breakfast actually, I haven't said that, she, erm, once she
started her tennis lesson she didn't really want to eat much
more than a slice of toast, so, you know, Monday through, I
don't think she actually came to breakfast with us and just
stayed at our apartment. Erm, but, yeah, as I say, I can't
recall anything being particularly different again about
Monday'.
01.11.21
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Erm, other than the fact maybe Matt wasn't there. But, as I
say, people were to'ing and fro'ing, people were arriving at
different times and leaving at different times'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So there was never sort of a set, you know, us all sitting
down together for breakfast at a set time'.
1485
'So, following breakfast, you would think that'.
Reply
'I think'.
1485
'That the kids would go to the club'.
Reply
'Something to mention, which I don't think I have. Kate and
Gerry certainly, that must have been the Sunday morning, they
did come for breakfast at Millennium on the first day, we were
there and we all pretty much met on that Sunday morning for
breakfast and I know they didn't do that again because they had
a hideous time with the twins wanting to walk everywhere at that
point and, you know, one would be lurking at the back and the
other one walking ahead'.
1485
'Umm'.
Reply
'And they just found it too, too difficult. So that was the
only time they, we saw them at breakfast, that was the first
day'.
1485
'So the Monday morning then who would be at breakfast''
Reply
'Erm, everybody else. Erm, so, you know, me, Dave, our
children. Erm, Russ and Jane with their kids. I think, again,
some mornings one of them would be on their own. Erm, tut, I'm
trying to remember the mornings, phew. It was one morning Russ
was on his own, erm, with Ella, because Evie hadn't been
particularly, she had a runny nappy or something and had been up
in the night and so Jane was sleeping in. I couldn't tell you
what day that was. Erm, and Matt and Rachael were pretty much
there every morning, I mean, I think most mornings I saw Matt
and Rachael with Grace. Erm, but the others, as I say, Kate and
Gerry were never there after the first morning, my mum was never
there after the first morning, erm, you know, that's'.
01.13.06
1485
'Yeah. And it was always, breakfast was always at the
Millennium''
Reply
'Yeah, before Madeleine went missing it was, yeah'.
1485
'Right. What activities did you do that day''
Reply
'On the Monday''
1485
'The second full day, yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, again, I think that was a sailing day, erm, so we went
along, there was one other chap, I think there was just me, Dave
and one other chap for the sailing lesson. So we went straight,
straight down to the beach after dropping the kids off. Again, I
think we had a full morning, we had a really good, good morning,
erm, just pottering about in the, in the boats. And, again, it
was pretty cold I think that day and, again, we just had the
short wetsuits on, but, erm, and I think we eventually asked to
be, to come back in (laughs). Erm, but we would have waited, I
think even if we'd come in a bit earlier, we generally waited
until it was time to pick the kids up before leaving the beach,
we didn't do anything else with the morning it was all on the
beach'.
1485
'Okay. And you would leave the beach and go back to pick up''
Reply
'Yeah, I'd go back, get Scarlet, Dave would go back and get
Lily and we'd meet back at the apartment'.
1485
'The kids having afternoon''
Reply
'The kids would have their lunch, you know'.
01.14.18
1485
'What about, again, visitors''
Reply
'Tut, again, I, I'm ninety-nine percent sure, erm, everybody,
bar Kate and Gerry and the children, had come for lunch'.
1485
'Anything unusual or anything that you can recall specific
about anything said or any actions from anybody''
Reply
'No, erm, I mean, everyone was having a good time, you know,
everyone was enjoying what they'd been doing, there was, you
know, a definite feeling of, huh, you know, people relaxing a
bit, you know, it was the first time, certainly for Dave and I,
we'd had any time doing any, erm, sort of adult stuff or, you
know, sports on our own since we've had our two children'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'You know, people were enjoying themselves and getting, you
know, we didn't see a lot of Kate and Gerry, I know they, you
know, apart from the evenings, they were having a great time
with the tennis lessons and, yeah, there was, as I say, a
genuine feeling everybody was just relaxing into it and having a
nice time and the kids were having a whale of a time, they were
just loving being altogether and, you know, we always had them,
they had their own lunch round the table and, you know, they
were, they were just all getting on very well and having a good
time'.
1485
'The kids got on well together did they''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And what about you adults''
Reply
'Very well. I mean, we've, we've, we're all pretty laid back
people, we've all known each other, I mean, you know, some
people don't know each other so well, Matt and Rachael didn't
know maybe Kate and Gerry quite so well, but, erm, you know,
Russ and Jane we've known for donkeys years and, you know, Russ
used to share a house when Dave and him were Junior Doctors and
I lived there as well with another chap, so, you know, we've got
a lot of history altogether, erm, you know, we all get on very
well together, been on holidays together, we've never had any
problems, no'.
01.16.19
1485
'Okay. So let's move on to the Monday evening, early evening. I
am assuming that the day has gone, like you have said, the same
as any other day'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And it comes to the time where you have high tea'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Tell me about, try and put yourself back onto Monday and tell
me what happened Monday, leading up to the time that you go to
dinner''
Reply
'This is when I find it hard, because I know we did go to the
beach on one of those nights, and I can't tell you whether it's
Monday or Tuesday, erm, I'd say, I would assume it was one or
the other, so. I don't know whether they asked me that in my
first statement, what we did in the preceding days, but that,
that is something I would ask to, you know, to see'.
1485
'Okay, fine'.
Reply
'Because my memory would have been accurate then and I knew
what I'd done on each day'.
1485
'Yeah. Right. I have actually got your statement here'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'It is a translated statement but it doesn't really tell me a
great deal'.
Reply
'I know'.
1485
'In relation to your movements, if I am honest'.
Reply
'No'.
1485
'I mean, which is why I have left'.
Reply
'I can't remember being asked particularly much'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But what's annoying is, I mean, I think all of us did piece
together, erm, movements, erm'.
01.17.36
1485
'You did a timeline, didn't you''
Reply
'Yeah, well we did that, but not only that, we were all sort of
talking, well what were we doing that day, what were we doing
that day, looking for, you know, anything that might, erm, in
retrospect, be suspicious, or seeing, you know, people we'd seen
or met, so we did sort of do that at the time, but obviously if
it's not in my statement I wasn't asked it. But I'm just trying
to think if (inaudible). To be honest, if you wanted that
information, it would help to know from MARK WARNER what nights
were what, you know, what nights were quiz nights, because that
sort of helps to spark the memories of the movements'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Otherwise I can't be sure what those nights were. There was a
quiz night one night, there was certain tennis events and those
are some of things that would help to know and sort of work
out'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But off the top of my head, I couldn't, I couldn't swear that
Monday was the night we had high tea or went to the beach, erm,
so one of those nights we would have gone to the beach with the
kids'.
1485
'I have got here a little bit of a routine which you may have
done at the time'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And how it highlights, sort of generalises your time on
holiday'.
Reply
'Right'.
1485
'Is between eight fifteen and eight thirty, breakfast and then
the kids to kids club. Twelve thirty to one o'clock, children
collected, lunch in the apartment, sometimes other children,
then your children would sleep after lunch'.
Reply
'Umm'.
01.19.23
1485
'Between one thirty and four o'clock, swimming pool or tennis
club with children and husband'.
Reply
'Well our kids never went to kids club in the afternoon'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'They would have been sleeping then, so that's wrong'.
1485
'That is right, yeah, so, I don't know how fairly, you know,
this was done from yourself, but it was'.
Reply
'Well I would have never said that'.
1485
'In fact it is June. I think it was June it was done'.
Reply
'June, that's not right either'.
1485
'And then it says between eighteen hundred to nineteen hundred,
returned to the apartment, bath time, bedtime, then to
restaurant for dinner'.
Reply
'Umm. I don't agree with that statement'.
1485
'You don't''
Reply
'I mean, if you are saying one thirty until four, I mean, our
children were asleep during those hours'.
1485
'Let me just show you'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'It is not your statement'.
Reply
'Oh'.
1485
'It just basically outlines a bit of an overview of yourself'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Which you agree all that is correct''
Reply
'(PAYNE read through the statement). Well that, it just, I
don't know where that's come from. I mean, one of us may have
gone out to the swimming pool or tennis court and that would
vary from day to day, erm, you know, we didn't necessarily all
sit in the apartment. But, if I had said that, I think, on the
whole, I sat on the apartment in the afternoon'.
01.21.15
1485
'Alright then'.
Reply
'Erm, my mum, on a couple, would have been on the balcony and
me maybe by the pool having a chat'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So, I suppose, it depends how you read that really, I
suppose'.
1485
'Right. Okay. So you say you are not sure of what day you went
down to the beach''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Could have been Monday could have been Tuesday'
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'But, in any event, what would you have done down at the beach
and how long would you have stayed''
Reply
'Erm, we'd just play, you know, in the surf basically with the
kids paddling really. Erm, it wasn't any warmer for anything
more than that really'.
1485
'There is a play area, isn't there''
Reply
'Yeah, outside the restaurant there is sort of swings and, you
know, a bit of a play area, so, you know, they, you know, you
could have a drink while they played. And, again, I'm finding it
really hard now to say, you know, 'a' what night it was that we
went down there and 'b' if we actually ate a meal before
Thursday there. We did, we went to this restaurant so many times
after Madeleine went missing with the kids. Again, you know, as
I say, every day was very similar, erm, and we did the same
things so many times, I just find it hard to say to you I
definitely'.
1485
'Yeah. You have managed to remember quite a lot actually'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
01.22.39
1485
'You probably don't think you have but you have managed to
remember quite a lot'.
Reply
'But, you know, I think, I, my feelings are that we, one of
those nights we'd have stayed on and fed the kids and gave them
tea there rather than dragging them back for high tea, erm, you
know. But the others might remember that better and definitely'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And I accept that they may well be right. Erm, tut, but, yeah,
it was, it was a nice little restaurant, so you could sit and
there was some wooden, erm, sort of balcony type, where you
could just sit and have a drink and the kids could play and eat
ice cream'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And we'd stay, stay there until it was ready to go back for,
erm, either tennis or bed really'.
1485
'Okay. So the time that you would have got back to your
apartment'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Do you agree with this time''
Reply
'Yeah, again'.
1485
'Round about seven, between six and seven, you think''
Reply
'I mean, that, that seems a bit earlier than I would say now,
but that might be right, you know. I, I mean, I guess, judging
by the fact we had them in bed by half eight, I'm just trying to
work backwards, I mean, I would have felt it was more sort of
seven o'clock by the time we were bathing them and thinking
about getting them to bed, you know, so maybe between half six
and seven I would say now we would do that'.
1485
'And when you was down at the beach'.
Reply
'Umm'.
01.24.08
1485
'Early, when I say 'early in the week', I am trying to sort of
pin you down to differentiate between the, you know, the Monday
or the Tuesday'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Was any of your group on the beach with you''
Reply
'Erm, tut, I mean, this is what I've got to differentiate from,
I can remember the Thursday very well, who was with me and who
wasn't, I think because I'd gone through that more. Erm, I'm
trying to think if Kate and Gerry did and I can't recall. I
mean, on the whole, we didn't see a lot of them until the
evening, we didn't see a lot of the kids. Erm, so I don't, I
don't think they did join us. It tended to be more sort of Matt,
Rachael and Russ and Jane'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Erm, I, I find it really hard to recall'.
1485
'It is tough, isn't it''
Reply
'Yeah, it's very tough and, as I say, it's just, it's so
confusing because we did so many times the same thing,
afterwards as well, often with Kate afterwards I would go down
to the beach with the kids, erm, that sort of time of day, erm'.
1485
'Just ease your mind slightly then and we will move on to, you
have bathed the kids because it is the same every night'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So the Monday night you will have bathed the kids as usual'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Tell me what happened up until you go into the Tapas''
Reply
'Sort of between''
1485
'Between bathing the kids and going to the Tapas on the
Monday'.
Reply
'Erm, again, some nights we went for runs. Erm, could I tell
you whether we went for one on Monday, no'.
01.25.52
1485
'Could you tell me who you went with''
Reply
'Erm, Dave and I. Erm, mum would sort of look after the kids
and, you know, I think at least once or twice Dave and I went
for a run, erm, down by the beach, erm'.
1485
'Any of the group down there''
Reply
'Erm, no. God, this is hard. We went for lots of runs before
and after, sometimes with Matt. I did one with Matt and Dave, I
can't remember if that was before Madeleine went missing or
after, erm, I think before. Everyone was into running. Rachael
did runs, Kate did runs, often they did, Kate was mad, often
would go out early when it was sort of hotter, I can't
understand that, but (laughs), erm, and Rachael I'm aware went
for runs and Jane as well. But, in terms of going with people,
Dave and I, erm, definitely went together, on other nights we
went alone and on one occasion went with Matt and I think that
was probably before Madeleine went missing, before the Thursday
night'.
1485
'But you can't be sure whether that was Monday''
Reply
'I can't be sure if that was Monday'.
1485
'Okay. How about, were you late on the Monday for the Tapas''
Reply
'I would, I would have said we were late, by my standards
(laughs)'.
1485
'What time do you think''
Reply
'We were probably within ten minutes of half past eight, I
don't recall being any later'.
1485
'Right (inaudible). Was everybody else there''
Reply
'On the Monday night, erm, I think so, yeah. I mean, I think,
usually, by the time we got there, there were at least two other
couples, you know, occasionally we might have been the third
couple, erm, rather than the last to arrive, but, yeah, and
nobody was ever late, I mean, we all generally got to the table
within twenty minutes of each other'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, so there was never anything really outstanding about the
previous nights'.
01.28.01
1485
'And would you pass anybody on the way to the Tapas''
Reply
'Erm, tut, no, erm, not that I'd'.
1485
'Any of the group perhaps going to do their checks or''
Reply
'No, because generally, as I say, we, the early part of the
week, we were generally all within the same sort of time
bracket, so, yeah, we didn't, on previous nights, see anybody
coming back. Erm, Thursday night was different, we did, we saw
Matt, but on previous nights, no, generally we'd go down, go
straight to the table. Erm, you know, when we arrived at the
Tapas there were usually some other couples eating and they
would normally be almost sort of halfway through getting to the
end of their meal by the time we were starting, we tended to be
seemingly later than most, erm, having our meals. Erm, but in
terms of me passing people on the way down, again, it seemed, it
always seemed very quiet and nobody about when we were going
down'.
1485
'And when you, again, I have got to go back to it, because I
think it is important, try and remember if there was any sort of
order in which parents went to check their children on the
Monday night''
Reply
'I mean, there was never a set order about any of it, erm, you
know'.
1485
'Yeah, but what I mean is, if you recollect seeing Matt go and
then'.
Reply
'No'.
1485
'You said that you had saw, most of the time it was the men
who'.
Reply
'I couldn't have told you the following day though, that sort
of thing. I mean, you're aware it's happening'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But I just think, because you're not party to the same sort of
process everyone else is doing, you know, erm, I couldn't tell
you. And I've never really gone to examine those nights, I
suppose, in my head, earlier on, so, erm, to say now I'd be
totally guessing, I really couldn't tell you'.
01.29.47
1485
'Okay. Alright. I am going to close it shortly'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Just so we can have a bit of a break'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And for you to try and get your brain back'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'But I just want to bottom off Monday night. Can you remember
anything at all about the meal, the conversation, where you sat
and what time you eventually went to bed''
Reply
'Tut, erm, there was a quiz night, I don't know whether that
was Monday night, that was, phew, I cant, it's just so hard now.
I think there was one, potentially two, kind of quiz nights, so
that might be Monday and Wednesday, because they were definitely
not in a row. Erm, again, you'd have to sort of check on that, I
don't know. So, yeah, that, that would have, that, again, was
just a bit of banter, the quiz night, erm, so we all joined in
that and lost. Erm, I don't know, generally we all sort of got
back, yeah, we were usually the last there, just I think because
we were eating later. Erm, we all generally went back at the
same time, you know, together, erm, on the Monday at least'.
1485
'Anybody go back for a nightcap or anything like that''
Reply
'To each other's apartments''
1485
'Apartments, yeah'.
Reply
'No, no. No, generally we were all pretty knackered and went
back and went to bed. I think the Wednesday night we'd stayed
out and had a nightcap inside the, erm, the bar area, because it
was quite cold outside, and we had a coffee, we went inside and
had a coffee and, erm, a liqueur, but I'm pretty sure that was
the Wednesday'.
1485
'What time do you think you would have gone to bed on the
Monday''
Reply
'I think it was pretty much around midnight for the, for those
earlier nights, I don't think we saw the other side of
midnight'.
01.32.01
1485
'Okay. I am going to give your brain a rest for the time being,
alright''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'I will switch the video off and you can go and have a bit of a
drink and a'.
Reply
'A jammy dodger'.
1485
'A jammy dodger and we will resume again in about fifty
minutes, alright''
Reply
'Yeah, okay'.
1485
'Okay. I make the time ten twenty-five and it is time to
stop'.
SIGNATURE
(Sgd)______________________________________________________
SM F PAYNE 10.04.08
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No
IM21A
Person Interviewed:
Fiona PAYNE
Number of Pages 44
Place of Interview:
Force Headquarters Enderby
Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:10/04/08
Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced:1110 hours
Time Concluded:1234 hours
Duration of Interview:
84 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s)
DC 1485 MESSIAH
Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present
None
Tape counter times
Person speaking
Text
00.00.02
1485
'Okay. Est'a graver. Okay. Vamos continuar a entrevista.
Continuamos no Quartel General da For' e ainda 'Quinta-feira dez
de Abril de dois mil e oito e eu sou ainda DC MESSIAH da Equipa
de Crime da Pol'ia de Leicestershire. Poderia dizer-me quem '
por favor''
Reply
'Sou Fiona PAYNE'.
1485
'Okay.
And I make the time by my watch eleven ten on that morning. The
same conditions, as you see, the interview is being videoed and
that is the camera, you know have to look at it, you know, you
can just talk to me as normal'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'One thing I forgot to inform you of earlier on is, it is being
monitored by a colleague of mine and also by Portuguese Officers
as well'.
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'Alright''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'Are you happy to carry on''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'I appreciate the first interview was quite tedious for you
because, you know, you were struggling to remember'.
Reply
'It's not so much tedious, I don't, as I say, I just try, and
to pinpoint details is very hard at this point down the line'.
00.00.59
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I don't want to be misleading but I'm trying to be helpful'.
1485
'Yeah, of course'.
Reply
'And I think that's, it's just getting a balance, erm'.
1485
'Okay. Same again, there is going to be a lot of open questions
and take as long as you need to answer, think before you answer
and, you know, if you are not sure, just say 'I'm not sure', you
don't want to commit yourself to something that might be
inaccurate, alright''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'One thing I need to just clarify Fiona is, in the first
interview we spoke about, you know, your movements day to day''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And part of that rundown, if you like, was saying that, or
from a note I produced, that you would actually go down to the
pool at one o'clock'ish''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'It is probably about fifteen thirty more nearer the time''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'd put the kids to bed and, as I say,
every day may be slightly different, but, on the whole, one or
two of us would stay in the apartment, out of me, my mum and
Dave, and sometimes all of us, and, you know, it was okay if one
of you wandered down to the pool for a stretch or whatever, but
we were mostly based, erm, in the apartment for the afternoon
until the kids woke up'.
1485
'Okay. I apologise if that was misleading in the beginning,
alright''
Reply
'Yeah. And I just want to clarify as well'.
00.02.11
1485
'Go on''
Reply
'Because I've been thinking in the meantime'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'We were talking about the beach and, you know, I wasn't sure
when, and after the camera came off or the, you know, the
recorder came off, erm, I was just saying to you, I actually am
wondering whether we went to the beach at all before Thursday,
just because I'm thinking about the weather and I remember
thinking at the time, it's such a shame for the kids that we
haven't really gone to the beach, because, you know, that a part
of the reason we chose the resort'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But it had been so kind of cool in the afternoons it, erm,
hadn't been much fun. So I don't want to commit to the fact that
we went there, I think Thursday may well have been'.
1485
'The first time''
Reply
'We definitely went on the Thursday and I think that might have
been the first time we actually did that as a group, minus Kate
and Gerry'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Erm, and I think why I'm thinking that is, I know Kate and
Gerry did go to the beach, I think they tried to have lunch on
the beach with the kids on one of the previous days and we
didn't, you know, and that's maybe why I'm getting confused'.
1485
'Are you able to say what day that was that you think''
Reply
'Again, I couldn't tell you. We didn't really see Kate and
Gerry for any lunchtimes, but I know one of those, I remember
Kate saying it was a bit of a disaster, because Sean put his
feet on the sand and didn't like it and it was cold and windy
and it was all a bit of a disaster, so they didn't do it again.
Erm, tut, yeah, so, you know, I am backtracking, but I think
Thursday was the first day that we went down after the sleep
time'.
00.03.35
1485
'Right. Is it fair to say that, I mean, you mentioned earlier
on in the interview that you didn't, the only time you really
saw Kate and Gerry was at the Tapas''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Is it fair to say that that is'.
Reply
'We saw them round and about during the day, erm, you know like
in the afternoon, when I'm saying when our kids were asleep. I
remember one afternoon I wandered down to the pool, erm, you
know, while Dave and mum were up in the apartment, and sat and
had a diet Coke by the pool with them, they'd just finished a
tennis lesson, you know. So things like that, in passing, but we
didn't really do any activities altogether'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, as I say, they were very much having their tennis lessons
during the day and it was just, you know, we saw them. And, you
know, so I didn't see much of them, erm, until the evening'.
1485
'Did you see Madeleine and the twins during the day up until
Thursday''
Reply
'Not, not very often. Erm, I mean, the twins probably a bit
more, just because picking, you know, picking Lily up at
lunchtime or whatever, erm, they'd be picking the twins up. And
then at high tea we'd see the kids altogether, that was really
the only kiddie time, when they were all together and with
Madeleine and the twins. Erm, and then after, after teatime when
they'd all play. But that, that was the main part of the day
where we saw, erm, Kate and Gerry and, and, you know, the
children, their children'.
1485
'And how would you describe the family as a whole''
Reply
'They're fantastic'.
1485
'You know, with the kids''
Reply
'They're fantastic, you know, I've known Kate since two
thousand and ever since I've known her she's wanted children,
you know, very early on in our friendship that was, you know,
something she openly talked about. And they did have
difficulties having children and, erm, you know, we've been very
close friends throughout the whole time of their IVF, having
Madeleine, and they, she was the most desired child on the
planet'.
00.05.34
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And ever since she has been born I've never seen them anything
but absolutely happy, erm, and, you know, she, to say this makes
it sound less important with the twins, but she always felt,
particularly Madeleine, was extremely special, erm, you know,
they're a very, they're a happy family'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Very happy'.
1485
'Okay. I want to move on to Thursday. We spent a lot of time
Sunday and Monday, didn't we. Are you okay''
Reply
'Yeah, I'm fine'.
1485
'Take as long as you need. I will give you a minute'.
Reply
'I'm fine, just carry on'.
1485
'You are alright. Okay. When I was trying to get the different
days from you earlier on in the interview''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'You mentioned that there was a couple of quizzes and there was
some tennis''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'If I jogged your memory and said that one, or the quiz was on
Tuesday night''
Reply
'Alright'.
1485
'Does that ring any bells with you at all''
Reply
'Was there one, was there just the one quiz night, can you
confirm that''
00.07.07
1485
'That, I'm not sure'.
Reply
'Because I thought there was two. Erm, certainly, erm, on, the
one that you talk about, who joined us and'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, on a quiz night, whether there was one or two, if there
was one it was only one, there was some, the tennis, erm, the
aerobics instructor, we invited her to have a drink, she was the
one doing the quiz and she joined us for the latter part of the
meal. Erm, and that was the only time anyone every joined us at
the table'.
1485
'Can you remember anything at all about that night now that you
know that that was the'.
Reply
'The Tuesday, erm'.
1485
'On the Tuesday''
Reply
'I don't think there was anything else that was sort of
exceptional or, or different, erm, you know, other than that,
you know. I mean, most evenings, we, you know, we were having a
good time and, you know, that, as I say, the quiz night I know
provokes more hilarity because we were in discussion, because we
were all arguing over the answers. Erm, but, as I say, that was
the only thing that was different. I can't remember her name,
erm, the name of the aerobics instructor, but, yeah, she joined
us that night'.
1485
'Right. And Wednesday, to try and jog your memory, was the
ladies tennis''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'Does that ring any bells with you''
Reply
'Ladies tennis, well, yeah, we all, all the ladies did
participate in, in that. That was, erm, I think it started six
until seven. Erm, and I think we actually asked on the Thursday,
we asked for the tennis, because we were the main ones doing the
tennis in the evening, we actually asked them to change the time
I think, whether that was the Wednesday as well as the Thursday
or just the Thursday, to bring it forward, I think it was
supposed to start at half six and we asked them to bring it
forward so it fitted in more with the kids, erm, so it must have
started at about six o'clock. Erm, and, yeah, I joined in and
there was Kate and there was Jane, Rachael and my mum, they all
joined in, and the boys had the kids in the play area and they
were all sort of watching and cheering and jeering'.
00.09.20
1485
'Oh right. Was Gerry and Madeleine there''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah, we were all there'.
1485
'So Kate, who was Kate playing''
Reply
'Kate, well we all swapped around but we, there was two courts,
erm, tut, and I think we were using a couple of the instructors
to sort of fill numbers and, erm, or a couple of other ladies,
who I couldn't have told you their names, but they were, I think
one was a Doctor's wife, erm, a young girl, erm, tut, erm, and
then I think there was one other, but mostly it was our, it was
our group and, yeah, we all, we all sort of played each other
really'.
1485
'Yeah. Alright. Can you remember anything else following on
that day then into the evening''
Reply
'Yeah, I think you're going into the evening. I'm just thinking
we probably, erm, I think that night Dave probably took the kids
back, our kids, a bit, you know, before we'd finished, to start
off, erm, bath time, erm, and we, we would probably come along a
bit later to help him, just to finish the tennis, I think that
was sort of six until seven. Erm, but other than that, yeah, we
would have, erm, done our usual routine, bedtime routine'.
1485
'And then the same again into the evening, nothing
spectacular''
Reply
'Wednesday evening, no. As I say, I thought it was, I thought
Wednesday evening was when Rachael was sick, I think you are
saying it was Tuesday, but in my mind I thought that was, erm,
but you're saying'.
1485
'Well whatever you can recall'.
Reply
'Yeah, I know, I mean, phew, as I say, I, she'll know I'm sure,
but I thought, I thought that was Wednesday night that she
wasn't feeling very well'.
00.10.56
1485
'Alright'.
Reply
'Erm, no, but nothing, nothing else different'.
1485
'Alright. So before we move on to Thursday, is there anything,
you have had a break, there is a couple of things that has
jogged your memory, is there anything that you can recall before
Thursday that we haven't covered''
Reply
'No, I don't think so. It was just a typical holiday really, I
mean, you know, we all had a routine that we pretty much stuck
to and that worked and, you know, there was nothing really that
stood out or'.
1485
'Alright. Do you recall on the Tuesday night, I believe,
Madeleine crying or somebody from the McCANN's apartment
crying''
Reply
'I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only
knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, erm, as
we were chatting at the table 'Oh', you know, 'I wonder', you
know, 'what', 'what she cried about' or, you know, she'd asked
Madeleine, erm, because I think Madeleine had said something
'Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried' and, you know, 'where
were you' and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn't
get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved
on and, you know, didn't say anything more than that and
wouldn't say, you know, whether she'd heard anything or been
woken up or whether she had just woken up herself'
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So that was on her mind'.
1485
'Right. So Kate told you that that happened on the Wednesday''
Reply
'Well she told me about it on the Thursday'.
1485
'Told you on the Thursday, yeah'.
Reply
'So, yeah, thinking now, I just was thinking it was the
Wednesday night'.
00.12.42
1485
'But you can't remember whether she said it was Wednesday night
that it happened''
Reply
'No, I can't say that she said it was the night before'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'But I know I heard about it on the Thursday night when we were
sat, sat down'.
1485
'Did you hear any shouting or crying at all''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'No'.
Reply
'I mean, I know, I mean, there was lots of, you know, at
bedtime there was lots of children's noise, kids crying, because
sort of kids do, but'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, I never heard any crying after they'd gone down'.
1485
'Alright'.
Reply
'Not even, you know, not even in the middle of the night or,
you know, erm, we never heard anything'.
1485
'Right. What I want you to do now, again this is, put yourself
back into Thursday and recall as much as you can'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'I appreciate that your morning would have gone to round about
the same pattern'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'But tell me from the time you picked up Scarlet and Lily say
from, was it eleven thirty you would have picked them up again
on the Thursday''
Reply
'Yeah, that, that day, erm, I actually picked Scarlet up with
Kate, erm, and I'm trying to think what the time, the times
were. I mean, that day we had been sailing, I think we were
supposed to be doing wind surfing, but that day the, as I say,
the waves were too rough and we ended up, Dave and I, taking out
a boat together. And, and that morning I think Matt came out as
well and he was on a separate boat, I remember we were joking
around with him quite a lot. And then we were drenched and
really wet and really cold, so I think we actually came back to
the apartment to get, you know, more clothes because were cold
and hadn't taken enough with us. Erm, and then, so that would
have been, I don't know, eleven, half eleven, that we were back
at the apartment. And then sat, erm, on, by the pool for a bit
with Dave and then we saw Kate and Gerry and we just sat and had
a chat with them. And then it was time to pick up the kids, so
Kate and I walked from the Tapas area over to the main
reception, going between, you know, there was a sort of path
that went between the other Ocean Club complex as well along the
road, erm, and she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet
and then we walked back together and that was the only day we
ever did, ever did that. Erm, and then when we got back they,
you know, Kate too Madeleine to their apartment for lunch and,
erm, I went up to ours for lunch. And that day, erm, I think was
the only day that no-one else came for lunch, erm, tut, I think
that was just me, Dave and my mum, and the others, Rachael and
Matt, I think, had their lunch with Russ and Jane, erm, so those
two families were together, Kate and Gerry on their own and us
on our own. We put our kids to bed slightly earlier that day,
thinking, because it was a nicer day, that we'll try and get
down to the beach and, you know, have a bit of a afternoon at
the beach with them. So that day was slightly different'.
00.15.55
1485
'So what time did you put them to bed''
Reply
'Erm, I'd say it would be, you know, about one, half one again,
erm'.
1485
'And what did you do at the time, once they had gone to bed''
Reply
'When they were asleep, I think that day, I know Dave had been
talking about trying to go wind surfing because the weather was
better. I'm just trying to recall. I think mum had tennis
possibly, I think I just stayed at the apartment, Dave possibly,
sort of halfway through the afternoon, while the kids were still
asleep, went off to do some wind surfing and I think Matt and
Russell had already gone down to do, to take a boat out a bit
earlier, so the men were sort of out of the picture, and I don't
know what Gerry was doing. Erm, as I say, mum, I can't remember
whether mum was with me or not, she possibly had played a bit of
tennis, I think she might have played a bit of tennis with Jane,
I don't know, I can't comment on them, but I was around, I was
around the apartment'.
00.17.02
1485
'Uh hu. So carry on then''
Reply
'And then they would have woken up, the kids would have woken
up about sort of three, half three, erm, and I went down to the
beach at that point, certainly with mum, Dave, I can't, I really
can't remember now whether he came down then to go wind surfing
or whether he'd left a bit earlier to do the wind surfing, I
have a feeling it was just the girls on their own that walked
down to the beach, because Jane and, erm, Rachael also brought
their children and we all sort of headed down to the beach'.
1485
'So in that little group was''
Reply
'So in that group, yeah, me, mum, I think, as I say, I can't
say for Dave, I think he was already, had gone by then, yeah,
Jane with, erm, Ella and Evie, well it would have just, it was
just Evie actually because Ella was, would have been in kids
club, and, erm, yeah, and Rachael with Grace'.
1485
'Was Kate with you''
Reply
'No, no, Kate didn't come. They, they tended to use the kids
club in the afternoon, for the twins as well as Madeleine, and
they were the only ones really doing that, as I say, Ella
sometimes went in in the afternoon, but the younger ones, you
know, none of us put them in in the afternoon. So, again, that's
generally why we didn't see them because they had things booked
to do in the afternoon without the kids and we didn't. So, you
know, we had asked them but, you know, they had tennis lessons
or something. So, yeah, we all headed, we headed off and then,
once we were on the beach, we were, we were a little while just
sort of the women and the kids really playing on the beach, you
know, sandcastles and stuff. Erm, and then, at some point, Matt
and Russell came back in and there was a bit of a laugh because
Russ was saying that he saved Matt's life or something, I don't
know, something had happened on the boat and, erm, you know,
there was some jokes about Matt trying to capsize and drowned
and all sorts. And then, a bit later, after that, Dave had came
in from the wind surfing. Time wise I'.
00.19.20
1485
'Try and remember'.
Reply
'I find hard, but, I mean, assuming we got to the beach about
four o'clock, I'd say, you know, I'd say Matt must have got in,
I'm sure it was Matt and Russ, about half four, erm, and then,
about twenty minutes after that, maybe Dave. Erm, so by five
o'clock we were all kind of ready to have a drink and feed the
kids. Erm, so that, that group as a whole went up to the
restaurant, erm, on the beach and ordered our, well the food for
the kids, we didn't eat, and we all had a beer. Erm, so, yeah,
I'd say about five'.
1485
'Right. So there is a bar on the beach, is that right''
Reply
'Yeah, it's the, I can't remember the name, is it the Paradiso
Restaurant, erm'.
1485
'Something like that, yeah'.
Reply
'Something like that. Yeah, there's only, it's the one that's
on the beach, I think it's pretty much the only one that's got
the sort of steps down to the sand and it's got the play area
outside, erm, a slide and swings and things'.
1485
'And when you went there, is it somewhere that you can sit
inside or do you sit outside''
Reply
'Well it did have an inside area but we always sat sort of on
the outside area, erm, just so the kids were free to come up and
down and play on the beach'.
1485
'So when you went to, well did the kids stay on the beach or
did the kids join you at the bar, at the cafe''
Reply
'They joined us, sat down and we would have ordered food, but
while we were waiting for food, I mean, they were all over the
place, you know, up and down, playing, erm, we didn't make them
sit down until the food arrived, so, yeah, they would have been
playing round'.
00.20.59
1485
'Uh hu. And sort of what time do think the food came''
Reply
'Erm, I'd say somewhere between five and half five. I mean,
there was always a little wait, but not too long. I can't be any
more specific. Erm, tut, I'm trying to think, I know what, I'm
trying to think what time we left to sort of gauge it, I'd say
about half five'.
1485
'You left the''
Reply
'No, that the food arrived'.
1485
'The food arrived about five thirty''
Reply
'Yeah, I think so'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Erm, and then I remember it getting to tennis time, because it
was men's tennis that night and the men had all rearranged the
time to suit us and it was getting towards six o'clock and, you
know, they were going to be late, so I remember saying 'Look,
you better go because it's not fair, you've moved the time then
you'll be late'. Erm, so I think that, that was sort of
approaching five to six. And we were toying with the idea of
getting the kids ice creams for pudding and then thought oh we
probably don't have time, but then we decided well, you know,
why don't you go off and go to your tennis and we'll just give
them their ice cream and follow on. And so I think they left
probably about, you know, that being Matt and Dave and Russell,
around five to six, six o'clock time. And the, you know, the
wives stayed behind with the kids, they had ice cream and then
we followed on about ten past six and we just walked back up to,
to watch them play a bit of tennis and give the kids, you know,
a little playtime. Erm, and I don't think we stayed there that
long that night because the kids were pretty, pretty tired. Erm,
I'm trying to think, I'd say probably by seven o'clock we were,
me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. Erm,
and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. Erm, I
think we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten
minutes later. Erm, and then I went for a run that night, after
the kids were bathed'.
00.23.13
1485
'So it is after seven''
Reply
'After seven, it must have been about half past seven'.
1485
'Where did you run''
Reply
'Erm, I had a fairly standard sort of route, I'd sort of go
down past the Tapas Restaurant, cut across to the far sort of
right side of the beach as you are looking at it and then I
would run along the beach full length, come back to the Paradiso
Restaurant bit and cut up, erm, I mean, it's hard to describe,
cut up through the shops and then back again. But, you know, it
was the same sort of route I did'.
1485
'I don't know if this plan helps you at all''
Reply
'Yeah, it might be too small actually'.
1485
'Might be too small. You know, that is'.
Reply
'Swimming pool, okay. Is that the Supermarket''
1485
'Well that is the pool'.
Reply
'The pool'.
1485
'There is the Tapas and there is the tennis courts, there is
your apartments, there'.
Reply
'And there's the beach, you've got the beach there'.
1485
'Which way would the beach''
Reply
'The beach is up here'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Yeah, I mean, I'd come out, I'd run down here, cut across to
the far side of the beach, which must be somewhere down here,
and then run the full length of the beach, erm, yeah, it's not
really all on this map'.
1485
'No'.
Reply
'Erm, and then I'd just sort of come up and sort of, there was
a sort of main road on a very steep hill, come up there and
across and then back up again'.
00.24.42
1485
'And then back up''
Reply
'Erm, yeah'.
1485
'And how long would that take you''
Reply
'Erm, I'm quite slow'.
1485
'You are quite what, sorry''
Reply
'I'm quite slow. It was probably about a twenty or a
twenty-five minute run'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I would have been back by eight o'clock'.
1485
'By eight. And what was the weather like, was it dark or was it
light''
Reply
'That day was a really nice day, which is why I wanted to do
the run. And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition
day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to
warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant
evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm'.
1485
'Right. Just before I move you on from your run, if you can
just take yourself back a little bit, when you was at the beach,
when you was all eating before''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Did you see Kate at all running''
Reply
'No. No, I, I know somebody did in the group, because they
commented, but I didn't personally see her run'.
1485
'You didn't see her at all''
Reply
'No, no, but somebody, I don't know which one of the group, did
say they'd seen Kate run past'.
1485
'And you said that David had already gone up for his tennis
lesson, what time did he leave the beach to go up for his tennis
lesson''
Reply
'Well the way I recall it, it was, sorry, the, the men's
tennis, from the restaurant''
00.25.52
1485
'Yeah, the men's tennis'.
Reply
'Erm, I think they all went together about five to six, six
o'clock'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'I knew they were going to be a bit late, as I say, that's why
I'm remembering it was sort of five to six, six o'clock, because
I remember sort of think, feeling it's being a bit rude to not
be on time when you've bought it back'.
1485
'Yeah, yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, yeah'.
1485
'And then you got up there, once you had all finished eating,
and you went to watch the men play tennis''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Just tell me a little bit about that, who was playing who and
was there any kids around''
Reply
'Erm, yeah, I mean, Gerry, phew, I don't know who was playing
who, but there was certainly Gerry, Matt, erm, you know, Russ
and Dave, erm, and typically being men, it was all quite
competitive and, erm, and far different to the women's tennis.
Erm, Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren't
there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely
knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed.
Erm, and, yeah, the others, sort of me, Rachael and Jane, with
the kids, our kids, were just sort of watching them playing for
a bit, we didn't stay that long that night'.
1485
'Yeah. When did Gerry tell you that the kids were knackered and
Kate was bathing them''
Reply
'I think that was something I learnt later or whether he told
me at the time, I know they weren't there and it didn't really,
it wasn't really that surprising, as I say, we were a bit later
getting there that night, whereas, on previous nights, when we'd
had a playtime, it was immediately after the kids high tea'.
00.27.21
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So, you know, it wasn't a surprise that they weren't there.
Erm, and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, erm,
after tennis he'd said he'd checked on Kate and the kids before
going to tennis'.
1485
'Who was that, sorry, Dave''
Reply
'Dave, yeah. So he'd mentioned that later, so I don't know at
what point I knew that, but'.
1485
'Was that off his own back or was he told''
Reply
'No, he said, what did he check off his own back''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I don't know actually, I don't know'.
1485
'How did that come into your conversation''
Reply
'Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said
to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he
was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children,
because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas,
having a story'.
1485
'Yeah. But when did he, specifically, when did he tell you''
Reply
'That he'd done that''
1485
'Done that, yeah'.
Reply
'I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and
we were back in our apartment'.
1485
'Right. So what time did he come back then from his tennis''
Reply
'I'd say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes
after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven,
something like that'.
1485
'And then you went for your run. So he told you that before you
went for your run''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
00.28.29
1485
'Is that right''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And so we move on then to your run, it just takes you twenty
minutes''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'You came back just before eight''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What do you see when you return back to the Ocean Club''
Reply
'What, outside''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Nothing remarkable. I don't remember seeing anybody. I don't
remember seeing anything suspicious. I think I just came back
and went back up to the apartment, didn't really see anybody or
anything'.
1485
'Any of your group''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Okay. And to get to your apartment would that take you past
Kate and Gerry's apartment''
Reply
'It would take me past, I mean, up the road where their
apartment is, you know, the access to the, the back of their
apartment'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'It took me past that gate, yeah'.
1485
'Right. Was there anything''
Reply
'Not that I've noticed'.
1485
'Different''
Reply
'Not that I noticed'.
00.29.28
1485
'Anybody hanging about''
Reply
'No, I mean, I've been asked that before'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And I honestly, I don't recall ever seeing anybody or anything
suspicious'.
1485
'So you will be going back to your apartment to get ready
obviously to go out for dinner''
Reply
'Umm, yeah'.
1485
'So what was the arrangements for the evening then''
Reply
'The same as they had been, meet up at half eight, erm, at the,
at the Tapas Bar. Erm, I think I was a bit late, because by the
time I got back and helped put the kids to bed and had got in
the shower, it was generally me that held things up for us that
night, erm, in getting out the door'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, and, yeah, there was nothing that different, other than
we were, as I say, that that night we were a bit later leaving,
erm, it was about ten to nine, five to nine, that sort of time
when we, erm, left to go to the Tapas'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And that night we all went together, erm, the kids were fast
asleep, erm, there was me, Dave and my mum'.
1485
'So having got back to the apartment''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'You have showered''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'You have helped put the children to bed''
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.30.37
1485
'Who was in your apartment at that time''
Reply
'My mum, Dave, me, Lily and Scarlet'.
1485
'And what sort of, what is the scenario in your apartment, is
Dave getting ready and your mum getting ready or are they
already ready''
Reply
'Erm, I seem to recall they, they were pretty much ready,
showered and it was just me left to get showered and the kids
were up but ready, ready for bed'.
1485
'Uh hu. And any conversation''
Reply
'Erm, no, nothing out the ordinary. As I say, at some point in
that evening I was aware Dave had said he'd checked on, on Kate
and, and the children, and that may have been after my run or
before my run, I couldn't, I just was aware that he'd done
that'.
1485
'Yeah. So you got ready then between eight and ten to nine''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And tell me about the time that you are ready to go, you leave
out and then you arrive at the Tapas''
Reply
'Erm, on the way down, we went down the normal way, as I say,
out onto the main road and round the corner. And just as we were
approaching, erm, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry's
gate, that sort of area, erm, we bumped into Matt who was
heading back to chase us up, erm, and we had a joke, you know,
we're always late. He carried on up to check on Grace and we
carried on down to the Tapas Bar and when we got there everyone
else, bar Matt, was sat at the table. Erm, again, (inaudible) to
get on and order. Erm, you know, there's nothing else really'.
1485
'So let's just clarify (inaudible). So your route would take
you'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Along here''
Reply
'Yeah, out there'.
00.32.29
1485
'Is this a road''
Reply
'It's a road but there's, yeah, there's a path'.
1485
'Okay. And then you walk down and turn right''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And then you have got the reception area there''
Reply
'Reception's there, yeah. And somewhere sort of there we sort
of bumped into, erm, somewhere between the gate and there'.
1485
'Bumped into Matt''
Reply
'We bumped into Matt, yeah''
1485
'On his own''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'He was on his own, heading, heading back to the apartments'.
1485
'Okay. And was anybody, again, this is a duplicated question,
but was there anybody about''
Reply
'Again, I didn't, I didn't notice anybody else'.
1485
'Weather conditions' Lighting' Was it dark''
Reply
'Erm, at that point, I don't recall it being dark dark, it was
probably getting dark, maybe dusk'ish, but it, you know, it was
still fairly light'.
1485
'Yeah. And rain, dry''
Reply
'Dry'.
1485
'Warm''
Reply
'Ish, I mean, the evenings were quite cool and that night was
certainly no different, it was quite cool'.
00.33.30
1485
'As you come to that corner, that is the corner that the
McCANN's apartment is on, isn't it''
Reply
'The corner of the main road''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Yeah. Would you be able to see the McCANN's shutters from
where you walked along here, along there''
Reply
'I don't think, I mean, not that I ever looked, but they were
sort, they were slightly sort of sunken, I guess, to the ground
floor and then there's a wall in front, so I don't think, even
if you looked, you could probably see in, and I don't recall
ever looking, but, you know, there was certainly a wall in front
of the, of the ground floor apartments'.
1485
'Did you ever notice if there were shutters there, I know you
said that you had got shutters at yours, would you notice that
there were shutters there''
Reply
'I don't think specifically. I can't say I ever paid any
attention, I knew all the apartments had the same shutters, you
know, but, to be honest I never went into Kate and Gerry's
apartment before the night, erm, on Thursday'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I hadn't been in their apartment'.
1485
'Right. I have got to ask you this question, did you see the
shutters open or did you see them closed''
Reply
'On the Thursday''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I didn't see them'.
1485
'You didn't see them''
Reply
'What, after Madeleine or''
00.34.44
1485
'No, when you was walking to''
Reply
'When I was walking, I wouldn't have even noticed, so I
couldn't, I couldn't tell you whether they were open or shut'.
1485
'And your route, how far away from the McCANN's shutters, wall
if you like, how far would you be away from it''
Reply
'Quite far away, erm, it's a distance, as I say, you've got a
wall and then the car park and the road, so we were on the road,
so it's, erm, I'm not very good with distances, I'd say, I don't
know, around thirty metres, something like that'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Maybe longer'.
1485
'Okay. So you then walked down the road, you bump into Matt,
you turn right, you go in towards the Tapas''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Tell me who is sitting down when you get there or who is at
the table when you get there''
Reply
'Kate and Gerry, erm'.
1485
'Are you able to draw'.
Reply
'Another drawing, erm'.
1485
'If you try and picture the shape of the table''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And, as best you can, remember, in relation to the line of the
apartments, where everybody sat on the table''
Reply
'That's the apartments and that's the pool'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'It was a round table. I'm not very good'.
00.36.14
1485
'I should have gave you an egg shouldn't I'.
Reply
'Erm, Kate was to my left and that I'm positive of. Erm, and I
think Gerry was certainly to my right, I think he was
immediately on my right. Erm, I know Russell was opposite, he
would have been about there. My mum was, my mum and Dave were
sat, I think Dave was next to Gerry and mum next to Russell,
they were certainly on that side of the table, erm, yeah, I
think it was Dave, I'm not a hundred percent on that. And then I
think it was Jane and then Rachael. That's how I remember it.
And I think possibly we were slightly rotated that way actually,
because I remember me and Kate pretty much with our backs, erm,
you know, to, to the apartments, so probably turn that round a
bit actually. Yeah, Russell was probably, you know, more
directly'.
1485
'So it is more sort of rotated''
Reply
'It's more twisted, yeah'.
1485
'Yeah, okay. That fine. Thank you. So tell me all about the
meal then, everybody is sat down, was there food in front
quickly''
Reply
'Erm no, we arrived, we ordered, it was very quick that night,
you know, coming, I have to say. Erm, it was a great, I know it
sounds awful in retrospect saying this, but it was, everyone had
had the best day and I think because the weather had been better
and everything, erm, you know, the boys had got extra sailing in
the afternoon, everybody was on a real high, that night
particularly, and everyone was saying, you know, we've just had
such a great day, erm, so there was a lot of, you know, a lot of
chat about what everyone had been doing and, you know, and a
really nice atmosphere around the table'.
1485
'Uh hu'.
Reply
'Erm, yeah, I mean, we all ordered pretty quickly that night, I
think, you know, there might have been a bit of wine on the
table already when we arrived. Erm, yeah, nothing more than that
when we arrived'.
00.39.47
1485
'So this is where I want you to think quite carefully now'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'In relation to the movement'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Because you said earlier on the visiting was more intense''
Reply
'I think it just seemed to be more people getting up and down
that night. Maybe because, as I say, Matt had already checked on
his way, you know, when we were coming down, so he was missing,
then he came back. And then I think it must have got to nine
o'clock and then, for Gerry and Kate, that was their sort of
slot, half an hour sort of, because they had been there on time,
so he went pretty much straight away, you know, very soon after
we'd sat down'.
1485
'So Matt had already gone''
Reply
'Matt had gone'.
1485
'Had Matt come back before Gerry went''
Reply
'Erm, I don't know'.
1485 'Okay'.
Reply
'I would assume so, because it didn't take long to go back and,
back and forth, so, erm'.
1485
'So Gerry went, what time do you think''
Reply
'That was fairly soon after we'd sat down, erm, I'd say about
nine'ish'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, you know, we've thought long and hard about this as
well'.
1485
'Yeah, (inaudible) and tell as much as you can'.
Reply
'I know, I know. Erm, I couldn't tell you how long he was away,
how long he was gone, it didn't seem like long to me, it didn't
seem any longer than, than any other check. But, erm, I knew
he'd met and chatted to Jez, because he'd came back to the table
and said 'Oh I've just bumped into Jez' and he had been
chatting, erm, about the tennis and there was some more, erm,
banter about that. Erm, and, you know, he reported back
everything was quiet, you know, as he had every other night,
there was nothing, nothing different about him or the way he was
or what he said really. Erm, and then, at some point, Jane, erm,
had left the table to go and check. Time wise, huh, I find it
really hard to give you specific times because, as I say, I
wasn't the one clock watching, erm, but I know she left some
time after Gerry to check on hers, erm'.
00.41.04
1485
'What do you mean 'left', did Gerry come back before she went
then''
Reply
'No, no, I don't think, I, I can't be sure, I know what
happened and I know what they're say, you know, they've said and
what they've seen, so obviously I'm piecing together what, what
I know and I believe to be true, erm, so, you know, you've got
to understand that as well'.
1485
'Umm'.
Reply
'But I can't, I couldn't tell you how long they were away. I
know Jane went and she came back and everything was fine'.
1485
'Yeah, then after Jane''
Reply
'Erm, after Jane, I think the next, the next people to leave
were Matt and Russell together, erm, and that, again, I would
assume is around the sort half nine mark, erm, just to fit in
with the way they were checking the children. Erm, tut, and
Matt, I do remember Matt coming back and saying well, you know,
that 'Evie had been sick so Russell was staying with her', erm,
and had told Jane, you know, 'If you can kind of eat up and then
go back and we'll swap'. And I remember Jane wolfing down her
main meal that had just arrived, erm, really quickly and then
sort of heading back to relieve Russell. Erm, huh, I know
everyone else has said this, because there was a lot of joking
about Jane relieving Russell (laughs)'.
1485
'I was trying not to giggle then. Are you able to say what sort
of, what time that was''
Reply
'As I say, I'm guessing, in my mind, it's about half nine,
because that would fit in with what they've done every other
evening, and I know that was the sort of time it felt like, that
half an hour had elapsed and, plus, thinking we'd had our
starters and the main meals were arriving, so that was, that all
sort of fits in, in my mind, with, with the time. Erm, Russell
had ordered a steak, I remember that, that night, because I had
ordered a steak and they were really perfectly cooked and his
arrived, obviously, and he wasn't there to eat it, erm, so they
said they'll keep it warm and I remember thinking well, you
know, it'll be really rubbish if you keep it warm. Erm, anyway
Jane, as I say, wolfed hers down and headed back and then
Russell came back to the table and, erm, and I recall this
because I thought how good the service was that they actually
came to the table and said 'Oh don't worry', you know, 'we'll
cook you another steak', you know, 'the last one would be
ruined'. So he sat down and there was a bit of a wait while they
did another steak for Russell, erm, and so that must be between
sort of quarter to ten and ten, because I remember just before
Kate returned to the table having, having gone to check on, erm,
on their kids, because that was pretty much when Russell's steak
arrived, I remember that being at that point'.
00.43.59
1485
'Sorry, his steak arrived when Kate went to go and check or
when Kate came back''
Reply
'I remember the steak being here sort of just before Kate came
back'.
1485
'Did you see her go''
Reply
'Erm, I was aware she'd gone, erm, at what exact point, again,
it's got to be between quarter to ten and ten o'clock, somewhere
in that time period'.
1485
'Yeah. Okay. So tell me what happened when Kate, how long Kate
was away and how she came back and what were you doing, what was
the mood of the table like''
Reply
'The mood was, as I say, it was very jovial that night,
everyone was in really, really good humour, erm, there was a lot
joking. Erm, Kate, she was gone, again, I wouldn't have said it
was for any longer, it didn't strike me as a long period of
time, she was gone any longer than any of the other checks. Erm,
but I do remember her coming back, erm, you know, I never will
forget'.
00.45.09
1485
'Go on''
Reply
'Erm, tut, she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the
doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across,
erm, 'She's gone. Gerry, Madeleine's gone'. And, you know, well
you can just imagine the shock maybe. So everyone was just sort
of still for what seemed like, sort of five seconds or so. Gerry
jumped up and went 'She can't be gone' and raced off with Kate.
And obviously we all followed, bar my mum, who I had said, I had
the baby monitor, our baby monitor, and, plus, at that point, I
just thought well, you know, the assumption was that she must
have just wandered off, so I said to mum, you know, 'You stay
put here just in case Madeleine comes down to the pool area' and
gave her the monitor, our baby monitor, and said 'You you listen
out for our kids'. So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and
Gerry, erm, back up to the apartment. Erm, we didn't go in at
that point, I think Kate, erm, Gerry must have rushed in with
Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and
myself split up in four different directions just to do a
search, you know, again assuming that she must have just
wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don't know which way
they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this
way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the
tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the
Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop
and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I
remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main
reception and phone the Police'. Erm, and I, I don't know what
Matt, erm, I don't know what Dave and Russell did at that point.
I said 'I'm going to go up to the', erm, 'Kate and Gerry's
apartment'. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn't found
Madeleine, erm, panic was starting really. Erm, tut, after that
really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn't,
other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front
area of their apartment, I was with Kate. Erm, and Gerry, he was
to'ing and fro'ing, in and out, in and out. Erm, it was just
awful'.
00.49.05
1485
'So having got back from your search around the corner, did you
go then straight into the McCANN's''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
Reply
'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it
was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I
had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what,
how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already
saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which
was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open
and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken,
taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was
like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you
know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and
I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the
beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know,
trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do.
Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was
sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed
was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly
really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots,
they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the
room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which
that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether
Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the
shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince
Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out,
although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point
we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going
to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that
room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually
open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of
the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the
back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have
been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the
inside'.
00.50.31
1485
'And''
Reply
'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't
what had happened and what could have happened'.
1485
'So what did you do, walk out of the apartment and round the
other side then''
Reply
'No, I'.
1485
'Or did you do it from the inside''
Reply
'I did it from, I'm talking about, so, again, the back or the
front, I did it from the back, which is where their balcony
was'.
1485
'Yeah, yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, I don't know'.
1485
'How was Kate''
Reply
'Awful, erm, I've never seen such horrible raw emotion in my
life and I've seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was
just bereft, she didn't know what to do, she was just panicking,
extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and,
erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her.
And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything,
what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was
angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was
covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn't know
what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying
'I've let her down. We've let her down Gerry', you know, 'We
should have been here'. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I
just don't think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was
just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on
it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to
phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed
like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you
know, we're all intelligent people, we were all trying to think
what we should be doing and, you know, what's going to make a
difference. And Kate's ringing, Gerry's ringing anybody under
the sun, family, they just don't, they honestly just didn't know
what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry's in and out, I mean,
they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling
helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate
was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find
weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking 'At least I
can pray for Madeleine' and her way of feeling that she was
doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn't functioning'.
00.53.22
1485
'Did the twins wake up at all''
Reply
'They didn't. They didn't'.
1485
'In the aftermath''
Reply
'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the
twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they
were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that
they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they
didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I
remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned
the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the
moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming
and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they
didn't, you know, so much as blink'.
1485
'When you were with Kate in the aftermath, who else was in the
apartment, I know you say that Gerry was coming and going, was
there any other''
Reply
'Gerry was coming and going. Dave came in and, erm, he came in
initially with me, erm, when I went to Kate, I don't think he
went in any of the bedrooms, I think he was just mainly in the
living room trying to put together what they should all be doing
really, he was talking more to Gerry, so he was in. I didn't see
Russell or any of the other group in, in Kate and Gerry's
apartment. Fairly soon after, erm, a girl called Emma, who, I
don't know what her position in MARK WARNER was, she was sort
of, erm, tut, I don't know what you call them, she was mainly
working at the reception area, just as a, erm, tut, I don't know
what you call her job title, she was sort of looking after
everybody'.
1485
'Just one of the travel assistants or something, yeah''
Reply
'Yeah. Erm, huh, I mean, I don't know what time she got there,
it seemed quite early on, she was, she was in the room for the
most part, it was me, Emma and Kate with Gerry and Dave sort of
to'ing and fro'ing until the first lot of Police arrived'.
00.55.20
1485
'Did you speak to Jane during that time or was it after that
you spoke to Jane''
Reply
'No, it was during that time and I think after I'd been in the
apartment, I think the furthest I went away from the apartment
at that point was just to go to the stairwell to check, because
I thought nobody had checked, you know, up, going up in the
building to see if she'd gone up there, and I'd started to go up
the stairs and then Jane had come out and said 'Oh Rachael's
already checked' or somebody else was up there. And, at that
point, erm, Jane had sort of rushed out and had said, you know,
quietly, sort of almost pulling me away from Kate's door, erm,
'I saw a man carrying a child'. And the horror and realisation I
think of what she had seen was quite evident at that point. And
I took it as serious at that point, at what she was implying,
that she thought she might have seen Madeleine. Erm, and I, in
the panic, I just said at that point, I said, well the Police
hadn't arrived, I said 'We've just got to tell the Police. We've
got to tell the Police what you've seen'. And didn't' say
anything to Kate or Gerry about what Jane had told me at that
point'.
1485
'Did you make a conscious decision not to tell them''
Reply
'It wasn't a conscious decision, but Kate's, I was just there
with Kate trying to be a support and it was no way appropriate
to be saying, you know, 'A man's carried Madeleine off''.
1485
'And did Jane tell you or give you a description of this man''
Reply
'No, not at, no'.
1485
'Exactly what was her words in relation to that''
Reply
'The only time I saw Jane was at that point that night when,
and all, as I say, all she said, I can't remember her exact
words, but it, it was, huh, the way she said it was urgent, it
was, she was frightened and she said, you know, 'I saw a man
carrying a child and I think it might be Madeleine''.
00.57.26
1485
'And did she say where she saw him''
Reply
'No, not at that point. This was all in immediate panic'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'So I was running around, Jane, you know, everyone was running
around. And I, I went back to Kate. And Jane, as I say, what I
said to her at that point was 'You've just got to make sure',
you know, 'that you give that to the Police when they get
here''.
1485
'Was there just you and Jane at that point''
Reply
'No, Rachael was around, erm, in the stairwell, she'd been up I
think looking on the other floors, erm, so she was around. At
that point I don't recall, I don't know where Matt and Russell
were, I didn't see them really after, you know, our immediate
search, until a lot later'.
1485
'And when Jane told you what she had seen how was her voice and
how was her demeanour when she told you''
Reply
'She was shaking. I mean, we were all very shaken, I think the
fact that by that point no-one had seen, you know, found
Madeleine. Erm, tut, you know, as I say, I, huh, I know Jane and
I know what she was saying, huh, I can't remember whether she
said it was Madeleine but I know the implication was that what
she'd seen, in retrospect, was highly, highly significant and,
and in her mind I don't think really there was any doubt of what
she'd seen was Madeleine being taken away. But I think the, it
was almost, tut, everyone was trying to hope that that wasn't
the case, it sounds stupid now, but despite knowing even what
Jane had told me, I was still hopeful Madeleine would be picked
up, you know, by one of the MARK WARNER staff or, tut, and I
think, you know, even for Jane, that was even despite what she'd
seen, she was still hoping it wasn't Madeleine'.
1485
'Okay. What did you do once she had told you what she saw''
Reply
'I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of
role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with
Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point
she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I
saw as my role really'.
01.00.00
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'I didn't do any phone calling and I didn't, I didn't really do
any more searching after that'.
1485
'Did you hear any phone calls or the nature of any phone calls
made by members of the group''
Reply
'There were lots of, lots of phone calls going on with Kate and
Gerry, erm, of which, yeah, I, I heard snippets and bits, they
phoned the family, I know Gerry phoned his sister, Trish, and he
was just sobbing and hysterical on the phone'.
1485
'Did you hear any of the conversations relating to any kind of
TV crews, i.e. the BBC or the ITV''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Anything like that at all''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Did you hear any names who anybody was speaking to at that
time''
Reply
'No, I mean, I know'.
1485
'Other than the family obviously''
Reply
'At some point in the evening I was aware that, I think it was
really the late hours of the morning, that, erm, I think, was it
Rachael who had contacted SKY. Bit I think at that point it was
just, we just felt nothing was happening and, you know, you're
just desperate wondering what to do. And I think I was aware
that at some point, I think SKY News it was or BBC, one or the
other, had been called by a member of our group'.
1485
'Right.
Reply
'But not Kate and Gerry, I mean, they didn't'.
01.01.42
1485
'Tell me about the remainder of the, before you eventually went
to bed, tell me exactly what happened''
Reply
'Erm, well the next thing really was that the Police, two
Policemen arriving, erm, at Kate and Gerry's apartment and they
were Portuguese obviously, didn't really speak any English and
that was, that was awful again really, because we were obviously
desperate and frantic and at that point time, we were just
conscious of every second that was passing by and by that time
it was over an hour, I'm sure, before they arrived, but it felt
like longer. Erm, and they wanted to come in the room,
obviously, and, you know, see where Madeleine had been sleeping
and they were checking the shutters and we were just trying to
get over the urgency and it just didn't almost feel that they
were recognising the urgency, although obviously with the
language barrier, I can appreciate, you know, it's very, very
hard. Erm, and Kate was getting hysterical at this point, erm,
she, you know, screaming, erm, because she just wanted somebody
who she felt was doing, doing something that was going to make a
difference. Tut, erm, and then, they were the only two Police
Officers we saw for, it seemed like quite, I don't know, this is
where the time gets difficult, but another hour I'd say, erm,
and then I was conscious of more sort of uniformed Police being
around, sort of out the front. I mean, we were to'ing and
fro'ing between the front of the apartment and the back of the
apartment. And, erm, there were loads of MARK WARNER staff
obviously running around the streets, they kept coming up the
stairs at the back saying 'Have you checked the apartment' and
we're like, you know, 'Yeah, she's not here'. Erm, tut, and
there were some other locals who were all trying to be helpful,
some helpful, some not. There was a woman who worked, I think
she was work, had worked in the bar in Praia da Luz and she had
actually almost invited herself up onto the balcony and was just
quite drunk and not being, just not saying anything very helpful
and I remember getting quite cross with her, saying 'Look', you
know, 'Why are you here', you know, 'If you're going to be
helpful get out and look for her' and, erm, and I remember Gerry
actually asking her quite politely if she wouldn't mind just
leaving them. Erm, I think she was the only one really that,
that actually came anywhere near the apartment that wasn't one
of us or a Policeman. Erm, I was conscious, yeah, of a lot of
Policemen in the, I don't know what you call them, the GNR or,
they had the boots, the long boots and the uniform, so they were
milling around the front and the back, again, all speaking
Portuguese, we didn't really understand, you know, what they
were saying or what they were doing. Erm, and I think, as I've
said in my other statement, that's when I, around that time I
saw Robert MURAT and that was at the front of the apartment. A I
say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back
and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone
knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm,
Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and
introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a
local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese
and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation
then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew
from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember
him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think
the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly,
because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had
glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he
was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe
it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was
saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said,
well how come you're a local living down the road and you're
here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police,
it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly
in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was
very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you
know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people
away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really
needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and
Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't
know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous
statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me
uneasy'.
01.07.12
1485
'Had you seen him before he introduced himself''
Reply
'No'.
01.07.15
1485
'Ever''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'During the time that you were there''
Reply
'No. No, and I didn't see him again. I was aware, I mean, as I
say, on the balcony you could see down to the street and I was
aware of him, erm, being around after he'd introduced himself
and, again, he always seemed to be with the, these uniformed
Police, in their vicinity, I wouldn't say he was with them, I
don't know what his role was, but he was certainly around, but I
didn't speak to him again'.
1485
'So a one and only time''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And exactly where did that conversation take place''
Reply
'It was kind of outside, erm, Rachael and Matt's apartment, in
the front'.
1485
'That is the road side''
Reply
'On the road side, but it was under the cover, sort of between
the, where the stairs are and Rachael and Matt's apartment, that
area'.
1485
'Alright. And which direction did he come from''
Reply
'He, well he sort of came from the stair, where the stairwell
was, that direction, and I was coming out of Kate's, erm,
apartment'.
1485
'So did he look to you like he had come from the actual
apartment block''
Reply
'He was already in the apartment block when I met him so'.
1485
'Alright. And you say he was in front of the local GNR''
Reply
'Yeah, they were behind him and, as I say, it was my assumption
he was with them'.
1485
'Yeah. Did you actually see him or hear him speak to the local
Police''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'Did he actually offer you any assistance, any service or, I
know you are saying''
Reply
'Saying translating, that was what he said to me. I mean, he
did introduce his name and I couldn't have told you it was
Robert MURAT, I couldn't recall his name at all, but I recognise
him'.
01.08.59
1485
'Right. Oh I see. So when he told you, he was a Robert MURAT,
and then you realised who he was later on from the''
Reply
'When I realised, in fact, it was the day he was made, erm,
brought in for questioning and we were watching SKY News, it was
the afternoon in my apartment and Russell was in the apartment,
and obviously, you know, again, we were all very shocked, there
was any progress, who is this man, and he was on telly and it
showed a picture and I was like 'Oh, is that the guy that was
around on the night acting as translator', you know, 'with the
squint', because you couldn't see in this picture, and Russell
said 'Yeah, yeah, that's him', but I hadn't seen him at all in
the days following, erm, you know, Madeleine's disappearance,
that, that on the telly was the next time I'd seen him'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And that's again what makes me positive that he was the man,
because, as I said, the squint was apparent on the TV and I said
'Oh is that', and Russell should remember this, you know, 'Is
that the guy that's got the squint' and he was like 'Yeah, yeah,
that's the same man' and I said then 'Oh, yeah, I saw him on the
night outside'. But at that point we'd, erm, again this is
something that's baffled me, why would we lie about it because
at that point seeing him around the apartment after Madeleine's
disappearance doesn't mean anything, erm, and we didn't know at
that point that he had denied being there on the night, you
know, we, we were just saying 'Oh, yeah, he was around', we've
got no reason to, to make that up or lie, it's of no consequence
whether he was there or not afterwards, of implicating him in
anything, so'.
1485
'Right. Okay. How did the, well I am presuming now we are into
early morning, aren't we''
Reply
'Yeah'.
01.10.45
1485
'What happened and when did you finally get to bed''
Reply
'It was after four o'clock, erm, tut, again, I don't know,
that, that whole period, it's hard to sort of put a time to it.
I remember it being after four o'clock, probably about half past
four when we went to bed. But in that ensuing time the PJ had
arrived, erm, the plain clothes detectives, I think there was a
couple of them and they'd been in the apartment and obviously
they, at that point, had said they needed to close off the
apartment or move the twins. Erm, so I'd suggested putting the
twins up in our apartment, erm, Emma, who was there, had
arranged some of the MARK WARNER Nannies to get some extra cots
and more bedding, erm, and we set up the cots in our living room
and a bed for Kate and Gerry as well, not that they used it,
but, erm, and then I think, I think they were Policemen, I can't
remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the
sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm,
and they didn't wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even
in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren't
their parents, they didn't, they didn't wake up. Erm, and we
settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I
think it was around sort of half four'ish we decided we should
all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had
gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of
helplessness really, everyone had gone, erm, you know, what are
we supposed to do'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, tut, so Dave and I went to bed and we tried to sleep.
Erm, I think about half an hour after that or an hour after that
it was starting to get sort of vaguely light and Kate had come
into the room just said 'Look, will you', would I look after
Sean and Amelie and said they need to go and look for Madeleine
and, erm, which I did. And I was conscious that, you know, Kate
and Gerry were wrapped up warm and went out on the streets
looking for Madeleine. Erm, tut, and the next morning is, again,
it's a bit of a blur really, I know Kate and Gerry had to go in
for questioning, erm, to the Police Station. Erm, you know, we
helped with, with the twins in the morning and tried to keep
everything as normal for them as possible. Erm, and then Dave
went in with, erm, the others for the first lot of questioning.
And, erm, we were sort of left at the MARK WARNER for the day,
that following day. Erm, so that's, I don't know, time is sort
of stagnant really, that following day, it's sort of hard to put
times to anything. But we, we, erm, me, my mum and Rachael and
Russell didn't go in, we were expecting to go into the Police
Station at any point really, erm, expecting, you know, we would
have to do a handover with kids, waiting for the other to get
back, but they didn't actually get back until quite late, erm,
and then, you know, we went in the evening'.
01.14.26
1485
'Okay. Is that everything you can remember''
Reply
'Umm, pretty much'.
1485
'Okay. Let's give you a break and break for lunch and then we
will, alright''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'I just want to cover a couple of points that you raised'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Just going back to your meal, where you say that Kate spoke
about, this is probably a little bit out of synch'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'But you said that Kate told you about Madeleine waking up''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And you couldn't remember, you didn't, you weren't sure
whether it was the night before''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Or, you know, the night before that''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that''
Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful
in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm,
tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked,
because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up
she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you
know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she
woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the
night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just
asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something
that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
01.15.57
1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''
Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well
she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.
1485
'Left the patio''
Reply
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort
of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously,
because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the
way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know,
'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she
would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her
mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being
really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking
up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the
context of that conversation'.
1485
'And can you remember exactly what she said that Madeleine had
said''
Reply
'Tut, just words such as, erm, 'Sean and I woke up and we were
crying mummy and where were you''.
1485
'Okay. Did she say what she said to Madeleine after that''
Reply
'No, I think, it was more, the conversation was more Kate said
she was trying to get more out of Madeleine, but as kids are,
you know, they sort of move on and she wouldn't really, she
couldn't really get out of her what had caused her to wake up
or, or, erm, you know, whether she'd just woken up anyway and,
you know, she never, never got that out of Madeleine'.
01.17.29
1485
'And what did you say''
Reply
'She didn't seem frightened or anything, I mean, that is what
Kate did say, you know, it wasn't something that had frightened
Madeleine. I said, in the context of the holiday, I guess I just
said 'Oh I'm sure they'll be fine''.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Much to my regret'.
1485
'Was that the early part of, I mean, because you have only got
a window of about an hour really, haven't you, in between, you
know, you sitting down and Kate going and raising the alarm''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So'.
Reply
'It was fairly early on in that evening'.
1485
'Fairly early''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'Could it have been the time that Gerry had gone to do the
checking and then subsequently ran into Jez, could it have been
around about that time''
Reply
'I couldn't say, I mean, you know, I'd say it was in the first
half of the evening'.
1485
'Yeah. Is there anything else that you can remember about that
conversation''
Reply
'No, as I say, it just strikes me, in awful retrospect, that,
you know, Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn't
quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is
something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a
long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that
you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that
that was something she wasn't really happy to do'.
01.19.12
1485
'When the parents, and I know that you said that you
subconsciously wasn't taking that much interest, but when the
parents came back on the Thursday, having done their relaying of
checking, can you remember anything that anybody said or
anybody's demeanour that was different to how they left''
Reply
'Nothing, nothing, everyone came back, as I say, everyone was
in good spirits that night, there was a lot of laughing and
joking, there was no change in, in anybody coming back as from
when they went'.
1485
'Is there anything at this present moment about what we have
been talking about that you wish to elaborate on or what you
have said has jolted something else in your memory that you
haven't already said''
Reply
'There's something I want to get in, which is something that
happened a few days after, erm, with regards to Jane. You were
saying, did she offer any description, which she didn't to me
but, I'm trying to think whether it was the Saturday paper or
the Sunday paper, my mum had bought a paper and it was in our
apartment lying around and I had read it sort of the day, you
know, I think it was the Saturday paper, I had read it and, erm,
it said in this paper a description of what Madeleine was
wearing and it put white pyjama bottoms and I read it and
thought, well that's wrong, because I know I was with Kate on
the night as she was giving her description and I knew it had a
pattern on the bottoms and a frill at the bottom, so I remember
being a bit, huh, well that's just wrong, you know, how can they
get it wrong, this is a National Newspaper. But then Jane came
later that day and read the same report and she said just off
the top, you know, after reading it out loud, 'Well maybe it
wasn't Madeleine I saw then, if she was wearing white pyjamas,
because they weren't white pyjamas' and I said 'Well what were
they' and she said 'Well they had, I'm sure they had some sort
of pattern on them and a roll-up or some detail at the bottom'.
And at that point my blood ran cold, because they were
Madeleine's pyjamas. And, you know, that was the description she
gave, having not seen Kate, having not talked to, to anybody
about what Madeleine was wearing. And, erm, and I think we both,
you know, just thought there's no doubt in our minds that that
was Madeleine'.
01.21.51
1485
'Yeah. And who was that to, that was to the Local Press, was
it''
Reply
'What, the newspaper''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'No, it wasn't, it was a National Newspaper that put'.
1485
'It was a National one, was it''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah, as I say, I think it, I think it was soon after, I
think it was the Saturday, my mum might still even have the
paper actually, she was the only one buying any, huh, erm'.
1485
'Okay. I am going to finish the interview now, alright''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And I will tell you that there will be more interviews this
afternoon, alright''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'So just relax yourself and have something to eat'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And we will speak later'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Alright''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'It is now twelve thirty-four'.
SIGNATURE
(Sgd)______________________________________________________
SM F PAYNE 10.04.08
00.00.03
1485
'Okay. The machine is now recording again and we are being
filmed and monitored by my colleague and members of the PJ and
parts of Leicestershire Police, erm, us as well'.
Reply'Okay'.
1485
'It is still Thursday the tenth of April two thousand and
eight and I make the time by my watch fourteen ten,
okay''
Reply'Yeah'.
1485
'I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am with the Leicestershire Police
Major Crime Team. Can you just tell me who you are please''
Reply
'I'm Fiona PAYNE'.
1485
'Okay. As before, I am just going to ask you quite a lot of
questions, I say 'ask you a lot of questions', I am going to try
and get you to do a lot of the talking'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'A lot of the questions are open and I would like you to
exhaust your answer as much as possible. And if you need time to
think about a question or an answer then take as much time as
you need. And, as I say, try and answer every question to its
entirety'.
Reply
'Okay'.
00.01.00
1485
'Do you understand that''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Alright. And all you are is a witness, you are not a suspect.
Right. Okay. This next stage of interviews is going to be based
around questions being given to us by the PJ, the Portuguese
Police Officers, in relation to your stay in Portugal'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'I mean, a lot of the questions, you have answered, but I am
just going to put the question to you'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Just so that we have clarified'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'You know, the Portuguese agenda. Does that make sense''
Reply
'Yeah, that's absolutely fine'.
1485
'Okay. The first question I am going to ask you is, how did you
check your children''
Reply
'Erm, as I said earlier, we had brought a monitor with us,
which we use at home, a digital monitor, erm, and that's what we
chose to use while we were out there. We ascertained on the
first day we were there that it worked, you know, from the
distance that we were at, absolutely perfectly, we felt no
apprehension at all about using that. So, as I drew in the
diagram, we put the base unit between the two rooms, on the top
sensitivity and I sat with it at the table literally plonked
right in front of me for every evening that we were out'.
1485
'Yeah. And you used it every single night that you were''
Reply
'Yes'.
1485
'At Portugal''
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.02.33
1485
'Did it ever go off or did the children ever wake up''
Reply
'Never'.
1485
'Never'.
Reply
'In fact it's probably the first week we've had where our
children, Scarlet being the youngest, actually slept for a whole
week all the way through, I just think they were so exhausted'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'They just, you know, they slept very well'.
1485
'Yeah. Okay. Do you normally use it when you are travelling''
Reply
'We've used it before, erm, we haven't really done what did in
Portugal before, i.e. leaving the apartment to, to go and have a
meal. Erm, we'd used it, as I said, the year before we'd gone to
Greece, erm, and at that point Scarlet was about three months
old, erm, and in that scenario, we'd taken it with us, we didn't
really use it much. I remember Matt and Rachael using it, erm,
for Grace, because she was quite young at the time, erm, in that
situation they were in a different villa and they came to our
veranda in the evening for a drink and used it much like we did
in Portugal. But we didn't really need it much, I suppose, in
Greece'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Erm, but I do always travel with it when we go away'.
1485
'I take it, have you ever loaned it to anybody''
Reply
'No, other than'.
1485
'Did you ever loan it'.
Reply
'Other than Matt and Rachael on that holiday'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But to people I know, no. No, it stays at home otherwise'.
00.03.53
1485
'Did you ever loan it to say anybody on this holiday, perhaps
during the daytime or''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'It was always in your possession, was it''
Reply
'It was always in our possession'.
1485
'Okay. I believe you have answered this question as well, but I
will ask you again anyway. What time did you come back from the
beach on May the third''
Reply
'Erm, I believe we left the beach at around sort of just after
six, ten past six, something like that, so we would have been
back, it would have taken us a good ten minutes to walk back'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'So it would have been, I'd say, about twenty past six,
twenty-five past six'.
1485
'And who were you with, was it just yourself or was it with
others''
Reply
'No, I had my children, Lily and Scarlet, erm, Rachael had been
there with Grace and Jane with Ella and Evie and my mum, keep
forgetting my mum'.
1485
'Your mum, yeah. Was your husband there''
Reply
'When we walked back''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'He'd gone earlier with, with, erm, Russ and Matt, they'd all
left earlier to go for the tennis, the men's tennis'.
1485
'Right. Oh because you said you thought it was rude that they'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'That they wanted to go back early or something''
Reply
'No, I, I said they should be there on time for the tennis'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Being as they'd asked to move the time earlier'.
00.05.06
1485
'What time would the tennis have started then''
Reply
'I think usually it was half six. This is where, you know, I
can't remember whether we changed it the night before as well.
But I know, because we were the main group using the tennis
evening, you know, they said oh well it's fine to move it back
to a different time because, you know, we were kind of the only
ones playing. So I can't remember on Wednesday whether it got
moved back to six o'clock. I'm pretty certain on the Thursday it
was moved to a bit earlier'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Six until seven'.
1485
'And the next question is, where were you exactly between six
pm to seven pm' I know you have'.
Reply
'Six to seven. So, from six to ten past six, I would have been
at the, erm, the Paradiso Restaurant, or whatever it's called,
on the beach'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, you know, and then we walked back up, so I'd say that
would take ten or fifteen minutes. Then we went straight to the
tennis courts area, the play area with the children, erm, and we
would have stayed there, you know, for fifteen, twenty minutes,
before going up to the apartment. Erm, and we went straight from
the play area to the apartments'.
1485
'Yeah. And so, what you are saying is, you were at the Paradiso
until ten past six''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Then it took you fifteen minutes to walk up''
Reply
'Yeah'.
485
'So you would be up to the tennis courts''
Reply
'We were certainly there by half past, I would say'.
00.06.31
1485
'By half past''
Reply
'Half six, yeah'.
1485
'Watched the tennis for about fifteen minutes, that takes to
you to quarter to''
Reply
'Yeah, I'd say, yeah, between fifteen, twenty, twenty-five
minutes, that sort of time, but I certainly would have left
before seven to go back and start bathing the kids'.
1485
'Right. And when you were at the tennis courts, exactly who was
there''
Reply
'Erm, the people that walked back with, with me, so Rachael and
Grace and Jane and the kids and my mum. Erm, and then the men
were playing tennis, so Gerry, erm, and Russell and Gerry,
sorry, Gerry, Russell, I've forgotten all their names (laughs),
Dave and Matt, so they, yeah, they were all participating. I
couldn't tell you when, if, if any of the other women left, what
time they left to sort their kids out, you know, maybe a bit
later, it's not we all went together or anything, but I couldn't
tell you who left when'.
1485
'Yeah. And was it just your group that was playing tennis at
that time''
Reply
'In the men's tennis''
1485
'Yeah, in the men's tennis'.
Reply
'Erm'.
1485
'Was there anybody else there for example''
Reply
'Erm, tut, no, I can't recall. Erm, tut, there was this other
Doctor, guy, he played a lot of tennis, I think he might have
been there, he was a young chap, erm'.
1485
'Do you know his name''
Reply
'No, I mean, Kate and Gerry were sort of more, as I say, they
were all the tennis side, they were a bit more friendly with the
other people that had been playing that sort of tennis. Erm, so
there was this other guy and a guy called Steve, I think,
possibly. I don't think it was just the four of them. Erm,
again, I couldn't, I couldn't swear on that'.
00.08.33
1485
'As I understand it, there was a tennis tournament taking place
the following day, wasn't there, was there nobody practising
or''
Reply
'Well there was only two courts and during that time, because
this was a set, erm, MARK WARNER tennis sort of hour'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'You couldn't book the courts for practice, erm, so both courts
were, for that hour, the men's tennis. Erm, so I don't recall
anyone else playing in the, you know, or practising. Erm, I
think, you know, I, I, as I recall, I mean, I couldn't say for
sure whether there were other men there, I seem to remember
there being a lot of focus on them sort of playing what they
wanted to play, the, you know, out of, you know, Russell, Matt
and, erm, and Gerry, you know, I'm sure they were practising
doing shots and things like that, which is what they wanted to
do, so I think if there had been other people there, they would
have been having to join in with that. Erm, because I think, I
mean, Dave on his camera might even have photos, I think I even
took photos, erm, of them practising doing a serve'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'You know, measuring the speed of the ball and all this sort of
stuff, you know, it was all a bit more, as I say, competitive
than, than the girls. Erm, I can't swear on it that there was
anybody else present basically, no. Maybe I'm not tuned into
it'.
1485
'Yeah. What I was going to say was, that I understand that the
kids had a tennis hour round about eleven o'clock in the morning
during that day and that Madeleine had been part of that
practice. Were you aware of that''
Reply
'No, no, because our children weren't of that age really, they
sort of did different things'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'I mean, obviously I was aware after, I've seen, I've seen
pictures'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm'.
00.10.29
1485
'Because Jane TANNER had actually taken a picture of Madeleine
with the racquet''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Were you there''
Reply
'No, I wasn't, I wasn't there'.
1485
'No. So, and again, you have answered this question, but
between six and seven as well, could you tell me where David
was''
Reply
'Erm, I can up to a point, yeah. He was, as I say, he left, as
I see it, around six, erm, and then I wouldn't have seen him
again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis,
so that would have been about half six and then he was playing
tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him
playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and
he, he didn't sort of return until after seven, ten past seven,
quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that's where
he was. And then the rest is what he's told me, erm, again, I
couldn't tell you times, but I know before he went, went to
tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all
in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to
join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between,
erm, you know, six and half past'.
1485
'So he didn't tell you a period of time where he did that
then''
Reply
'Sorry''
1485
'He didn't tell you the period of time which he checked on''
Reply
'Well he said it was before tennis'.
1485
'Before tennis''
Reply
'Yeah, before going to the tennis'.
1485
'And the next question is, okay, and you have just answered it.
If he is not with you during this period then where did he go
and with what intention' Well it is obviously it is to play
tennis, isn't it''
Reply
'Umm'.
00.12.19
1485
'Although you can't say one hundred percent, can you, if he was
on the tennis court between six and seven, can you''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'You can say he was there between quarter to seven and seven''
Reply
'I feel I'm answering Dave's question for him'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Because all I know is that he, he said to me later on that
evening that he had been in on Kate and the kids. Erm, now I'm
taking that as before tennis, whether it was that Gerry stayed
on playing tennis and Dave came back earlier and popped in
before coming up to our apartment, I, I can't, I can't be a
hundred percent on that'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, you know, contrary to what you're thinking, I mean, huh,
you know, we don't'.
1485
'I don't think'.
Reply
'Well, you know. Dave's, erm, you know, I believe that's for
Dave to say what he did really'.
1485
'Sure, yeah'.
Reply
'But I know, I know he said'.
1485
'It is your interview'.
Reply
'Yeah, I know he said he'd been in there'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, and that was before coming back to our apartment, so
between, between six and seven o'clock'.
00.13.11
1485
'Yeah. If you don't know you don't know'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'That is the answer really, isn't it''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'During your stay at the Ocean Club holiday apartment, did you
ever leave your apartment doors and windows open''
Reply
'No. No, I mean, generally there was always, if we left the
apartment open, there would have been one of us in it, and
obviously there was three adults. Erm, we did occasionally
leave, because there were three of us and only one key, if we
were doing different things, we did, occasionally, during the
daytime, leave the key under the mat at the front door just so
my mum could get in and out. Erm, but if we were, if we were
going out for the evening altogether, we took the key with us,
so it was only during the day we sometimes did that'.
1485
'Yeah. Incidentally, when you were actually in your apartment,
you know, locked up for the night''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What is the securing arrangements, if you like, what happens,
how do you lock your French doors, how do you lock you''
Reply
'The French doors were fairly flimsy, I think they were just,
as I remember it, just one of these little vertical sort of
slots that go up and down and that was it, you couldn't really
lock it any more than that. Erm, as I say, the shutters that
were on the windows, we never really touched. The window in the
kitchen, we did open that, just when we were cooking and stuff,
erm, but we would close that and lock it, I can't remember what
the lock mechanism was on it'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But, erm, and other than that, once we were in, as I say, the
front door had the double lock on it and we generally, erm, used
the double lock once we were in for the night and when we were
going out'.
00.14.55
1485
'So single locked it when you went out and double locked it
when you was in''
Reply
'No, we used to double lock when we were going in and out'.
1485
'In and out'.
Reply
'But, you know, but you were saying, when we were in for the
night we just locked it from the inside. Yeah, the kitchen
window would have been shut, as I say, we always kept it shut,
unless we were cooking, and locked'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And the same with the French doors really, if they weren't
open they were shut and locked, we didn't, we didn't ever leave
it open really'.
1485
'What about your internal doors''
Reply
'There were no locks that I recall, other than on the bathroom,
on the internal doors. Erm, and was kept Lily's ajar, erm, and
Scarlet was in the room with us and we probably shut that when
we were asleep'.
1485
'So at any time would the internal doors be closed''
Reply
'Overnight''
1485
'Well at any time during your holiday''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah, at night-time'.
1485
'At night-time'.
Reply
'Ours would be, but that was the only door really, as I said,
Lily always like to have a bit of light coming in from outside
so she always sleeps with the door ajar, erm'.
1485
'Scarlet is in with you, isn't she''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah, so it would have just been our room that the door
would be shut'.
1485
'What about when you go for something to each, because that
would be the time that you would leave the kids''
Reply
'The time when we were leaving the kids, the doors were both
ajar, Scarlet and Lily's room'.
00.16.17
1485
'Yeah. And the French door would be locked''
Reply
'Locked, yeah'.
1485
'Using that little latch''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'And the'.
Reply
'The outside door would be locked, the front door'.
1485
'Would be locked as well''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And there is just one key''
Reply
'One key'.
1485
'And who would keep possession of that''
Reply
'Whoever was last to lock it really. Erm, it was usually my
mum, who took it upon herself, because she carries a handbag
everywhere, to keep, erm, keep the key if we were all out
together'.
1485
'What about the rest of the party, Kate and Gerry, did they
ever discuss with you whether they locked their doors or their
windows when they were in and out''
Reply
'Erm, I mean, I was aware of them swapping their arrangement at
some point, because I know they had been coming, using the front
door, erm, which is the door with the key, to go in and check
the children, and then, at some point, that changed to using the
back door, just because, as you can see from the map, it was
quicker for them to do that and easier to get in, then just sort
of quickly nip in through the French doors and out again. I
couldn't tell you what point that was, but I know, I know there
was a conversation about, oh we've started nipping in that way
rather than going the long way round. Erm, so, I suppose, at
that point, that's when they, because you couldn't lock the
French doors from outside, that's when they weren't locking it'.
00.17.34
1485
'Yeah. How far down the week was that''
Reply
'Erm, I mean, my feeling is, you know, they did it the front
way for a couple of night and the rest left it open, but I don't
know, I mean, they'd know that, as I say, I just remember the
conversation'.
1485
'Yeah. Did Kate ever discus that with you, you know, when she
discussed about Madeleine, did she ever discuss, you know, the''
Reply
'No, as I say, it came up at that, that conversation, which I
think was on the, on the, on the Thursday night, about, erm, you
know, whether I would feel happy leaving, leaving a door
unlocked, but that was the only time I'd heard Kate sort of
almost saying, question whether they should do it or not'.
1485
'Did she say that she actually left it unlocked then''
Reply
'Yeah, she must have done, because I knew that it wasn't
locked. And I was a bit'.
1485
'And did she'.
Reply
'I mean, I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking
about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not,
erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you
know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know,
I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I
wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that
sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I
think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very
different, she is very cautious, Gerry, erm, you know, is
probably more sort of happy to, tut, relax and go with the flow
and that sort of thing, Kate is very, very much more cautious.
So, you know, I think, as I said earlier, I think that was
something she wasn't quite happy with'.
1485
'Did she say that she had confronted Gerry over that matter''
Reply
'No. No, I mean, I think they'd discussed it and, you know,
she, she had, huh, it sounds like it happens a lot, when I say,
you know, about deciding to go on holiday, but, you know, he's
very much 'Oh it'll be fine', you know, and she was like, you
know, yeah, most of the time he's probably right, you know, she
worries a bit too much and he worries less. But, you know, I
don't think there was an issue between them about it but, as I
say, Kate was, it was just something that I'm sure was on her
mind that night'.
00.19.41
1485
'Yeah. And did they, during the aftermath, if you like, did
they discuss how they left their doors on that night inside''
Reply
'As in the French doors''
1485
'Well, you know, the French doors and the inside doors, did
they discuss with you how they left the doors''
Reply
'They always, Madeleine, the room Madeleine, Sean and Amelie
were in was always left ajar, I think for the same reason that
we leave our kids doors open, they liked a bit of light they
didn't like it to be shut fully, so I was aware of that. And
then I know that the French doors, although not locked, were
closed, and I think the curtains pulled to as well. Erm, and I
know there's been a lot, when Kate, the night when we came back
and Madeleine was gone, and I think that was something that had,
erm, there had been some discussion about, because she'd, the
door had slammed, erm, when she'd gone in, had slammed shut, and
she'd gone back to look, thinking she'd left the French doors
open and, in fact, they were shut and she thought, well where's
the breeze coming from, and it was then that she'd opened the
door to realise that the window was open and that's why the door
had slammed'.
1485
'Right. What about the rest of the group, Jane and Russell, did
they ever discuss with you about their locking arrangements,
doors and windows''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'I know what you are going to say, you are going to say, ask
them, but, you know, I am just asking you whether they asked''
Reply
'It wasn't something that came up, so, no, I wasn't really'.
00.21.11
1485
'Or they discussed with you''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'They didn't discuss how they left their children, for example,
within the flat or within the apartment and whether there was
any change''
Reply
'No'
1485
'Was it Kate and Gerry's system that changed through the week
or was it everybody's in general''
Reply
'Erm, no, I think, as far as I'm aware, Russ and Jane and Matt
and Rachael still went the long way round'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And I think it was only because Kate and Gerry's apartment had
that little side gate'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'That, you know, it made it so easy for them to go in that way,
whereas, for everyone else, there wasn't really that option of
nipping in a back gate'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, actually the only way you could get in, erm, well the
easiest way of getting in was the long way, was going round to
the front so'.
1485
'Yeah. Wasn't somebody else downstairs though''
Reply
'They were all downstairs but there wasn't access to, direct
access to the back gardens'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'Because there's, there's a long wall and at each end of that
whole row of apartments you can get in the ground floor
apartment through a gate, so Gerry's and whoever would have been
at the far end, but the ones in between, there was no, no
direct, erm, access'.
00.22.29
1485
'What about Matthew and Rachael, did they discuss with you at
all their securing or unsecuring arrangements, whichever the
case may be''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'There was never any discussion''
Reply
'I mean, I guess, I mean, as I said at the beginning, you just
assume everyone's locked their apartments and gone. And, as I
say, I assume Kate and Gerry had even done that, it was only
that night I realised that they hadn't or I'd even thought about
the fact they were going in the French doors and you couldn't
lock it from the outside, but I was aware their system changed
and I was aware erm, on that night that their apartment was
unlocked'.
1485
'Yeah. In the days prior to Madeleine disappearing, did you
ever check on your kids and, if so, how often''
Reply
'In the evening, once we'd left the room, we didn't go back
until it was time to go back, on any of the nights. We didn't
hear any crying, we didn't hear any noises to, to raise any
suspicion to go back and check. So, no, we didn't'
1485
'And why was that''
Reply
'Because we didn't have any reason to, we felt the kids were
fast asleep and, and happy. And I'd just like to say, our
monitor, if it loses any contact with the base unit at all, it,
it alarms, so, you know, we knew we were in continuous contact
with the children'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And had there been any noise we would have gone to check, but
that didn't happen'.
1485
'From what we have discussed so far, is there anything that you
think that we haven't discussed or I haven't asked you, which
you could be quite pertinent to, you know, what we have been
talking about, does that make sense''
Reply
'Yeah. Erm, no, I mean, things will probably come up later and
I'll probably drag you back. But, erm, it's just, it's hard
putting it altogether and there's so many things that, since
May, have come into my head as important, but at the moment I
don't think I can think of anything that, you know, in
particular'.
00.24.54
1485
'I mean, I know that, I know that you have, so many things have
been duplicated, haven't they, since you have been interviewed,
you have been interviewed over in Portugal and then you have
been interviewed over here. And what I don't want you to think
is, well I've already answered that so I won't'.
Reply
'I don't think we have answered many questions to be honest,
you know, before'.
1485
'Coming here, yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And, as well, don't assume that we know everything, if there
is something that you are thinking, oh I assume that they know
that so I'm not going to say, if there is something that you
think perhaps, you know, ought to be highlighted, that we
haven't brought up, you know, just bring it up at any time,
alright''
Reply
'Umm, I mean, the bit with Dave checking the children, I would
like to highlight that, in the fact, the reason he mentioned it
is because they were so, it was a picture of an idyllic family.
And I think that is important because of all the Press and, you
know, what they've been accused of'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'You know, I think the picture Dave described could not be
further from what has been suggested happened to Madeleine'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And that is important I think to put in and that is why he
thought it was worth a mention to me'.
1485
'Yeah. Tell me about that picture that he said then''
Reply
'Well he just said it was just, you know, a really lovely
picture. He popped in and the, you know, the reason I guess
Gerry had asked him just to check Kate was okay, bathing three
kids on her own and didn't want him to come back, and he just
found it funny because it couldn't be further from, erm, the
truth, you know, what Gerry had suggested, you know, that she
might be needing help, she'd sort of done it all and they were
all shining, gleaming, happy children, you know, sitting down,
lovely, all ready for bed. And I think that, you know, that was
why he mentioned it, because it was a lovely thing'.
00.26.33
1485
'Yeah. Okay. Now I am going to move on to questions that Gerry
and Kate have asked to be asked, okay''
Reply
'Right'.
1485
'And question number one is, how long have you known Gerald and
Kate HEALY and what kind of a relationship is there between you
and the McCANNs''
Reply
'Erm, I first met Kate, erm, at work, erm, we both, she was an
Anaesthetic Registrar at Leicester General and I just started
work there, it was towards, I think it was December two
thousand, erm, and we'd often be on-call together, her covering
the Intensive Care Unit and me covering Theatre, so we'd often,
erm, you know, be there sort of late in the evening in the
coffee room just sort of chatting, that's how we sort of first
got to know each other and very quickly became good friends,
we've got a lot in common. And I met Gerry, I think the first
time actually at work, when I was on-call at Glenfield, where he
works, again in the coffee room, huh, not suggesting we sit and
drink coffee all the time, but, erm, I first met him there. And
then, subsequently, you know, I think they stayed over at our
house for, for a night out, a sort of medical night out, and,
erm, they met Dave, that was the first time they met Dave, and
it's just gone on from there really. So we've, we've always got
on really well, I think, erm, all got a lot in common, Gerry and
Dave into their sports as were me and Kate, they're very laid
back, very easy going people and, you know, really good company.
Erm, we've been on holiday numerous times with them. Before we
had children we went to Lanzarote for a week to one of these
sports, erm, sports centres, erm, that was when she was pregnant
with Madeleine. Erm, and, yeah, we've met up regularly. Erm, you
know, we've had a really, as I say, a very, very strong
friendship with them'.
00.28.39
1485
'What about your wedding, was it your wedding in Italy''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'They came to your wedding''
Reply
'Yeah, they did, Madeleine was only three months old'.
1485
'What year was that''
Reply
'Two thousand and three, erm, September'.
1485
'How was that holiday''
Reply
'Fantastic. They'd gone out a bit before, erm, we got married
at this sort of Castle and it had accommodation attached and
they'd booked a whole sort of week there, so they were there for
a few days before, running up. And they were great, you know.
Madeleine had not been an easy baby by any stretch, but, I mean,
Kate relished every minute of it, despite the fact Madeleine was
a baby who would not be put down, you know, without yelling.
And, you know, you'd often go and visit her in the afternoon and
she'd be there jigging in front of MTV with Madeleine, which
she'd been doing all day, you know, still with a smile on her
face and, erm, that, that was Kate, you know. Erm, but I think
they saw our wedding in Italy as a bit of a turnaround, because
Madeleine, they had a good week, Madeleine sort of started
sleeping and things'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And, erm, they were just very relaxed, very, you know, very
happy to be there'.
1485
'And how did you find Gerry on that holiday''
Reply
'The same as every really, yeah, the same as ever. Again, they
just chilled out and enjoyed being there'.
1485
'Because you have painted the picture, haven't you, of Kate
being quite'.
Reply
'Umm, I guess because Kate's my main, my main friend'.
00.30.00
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'But Gerry is so, I mean, his personality is just positive,
positive, positive, I've never seem him, you know, bar May the
third, almost down about anything and even then he's remarkable
in my, you know, in my eyes, because he is so positive. Erm, you
know, he's got a lot of energy and he's very much hands-on and
always has been with all the children and he's just, you know,
he's a fun dad, as soon as he's in the door, he's up for doing
it all, you know, he'd be up in the night and changing their
nappies, he's very hands-on and very brilliant with Madeleine
and the twins, he was a father. You know, they've always been an
incredible team. I mean, you imagine, I know other people that
have had twins, you know, but to imagine they had a small
toddler and twins, you know, I can imagine myself being
completely phased by that, but, again, you never saw them
complaining about lack of sleep or anything, they were always
positive, out there doing stuff and just getting on with it and
enjoying it and they've never given any other impression
otherwise between them, ever'.
1485
'Yeah. Did you ever visit their home in Rothley''
Reply
'Yeah, lots'.
1485
'When you say 'lots' so are we into double figures over the
years''
Reply
'We visited the day, yeah, yeah, we visited the day they moved
in and bought them pizza (laughs). Erm, yeah, and been over, I
mean, Kate and I often meet up during the week, on my days off
and her days off, you know, with the kids, sometimes without the
men. Erm, but, yeah, we've been over socially as well with
partners and kids and weekends and birthday parties and, yeah,
spent a lot of time there'.
1485
'And it has always been a nice social event''
Reply
'Absolutely'.
1485
'No issues''
Reply
'No, I mean, before, when they lived in Queniborough, you know,
the same there really. No, I mean, I can honestly, I'll say this
as well, the week, erm, tut, before we went to Portugal, I had a
day, Kate and I organised a day just shopping in Nottingham
without the kids, as a bit of a treat for us, and, erm, it was
Kate's birthday and we sat and had lunch and she said 'If it
didn't sound so sort of, you know, smug, I would say I could not
be happier, you know, as a family', she's got everything she
ever wanted, she's happy in her marriage, happy with the kids
and that was the, you know, the month before we went, so, and
that was them'.
00.32.32
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I mean, they were just happy. They were just genuinely happy.
And we never saw them any other way'.
1485
'And the kids were always happy''
Reply
'Absolutely'.
1485
'No'.
Reply
'I mean, they all have, they all have their tantrums and stuff,
yeah, erm, you know, I wouldn't say they were perfect kids or
anything'.
1485
'I mean, put aside'.
Reply
'But they just had a really good way of dealing with them. I
mean, Madeleine, you know, any, any toddler is going to have
their moments of tantrums, but they always dealt with her very
well and, you know, they, they, probably a lot better than me, I
mean, I shout at my children, I never heard them even shout at
Madeleine, they were always very calm with the way they handled
her and, erm, you know, just very calm parents, they never
seemed to be run ragged or, you know, which, as I say, with
three young kids you would imagine most people would, but they,
they weren't'.
1485
'I mean, put aside your friendship, you know, take off your
friendship head for a minute. When you have been round or been
in the company of them with their children, is there anything at
all that you might think, oh I wouldn't have done that or''
Reply
'They were perhaps easier on their kids than I'd be, but that
was all I'd say. No, there was, you know, absolutely nothing,
no. They were a good team'.
00.33.48
1485
'And you say that it is dozens of times over the years''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Had you spent holidays with them at any other time, we have
already discussed this, haven't we, you didn't''
Reply
'We said one before kids and then we went to Majorca, erm, that
was two thousand and five, September two thousand and five, for
two weeks, with Kate, Gerry, their three children and then there
were two other families, erm, who weren't on this holiday, I
don't know whether you want their names, but, erm, we had a big
villa and, you know, four families for two weeks and, again, had
a, had a fantastic two weeks'.
1485
'What resort was it''
Reply
'It wasn't a resort, it was sort of a bit out on a limb
actually'.
1485
'In the middle of nowhere''
Reply
'Yeah, a bit in the middle of nowhere and don't ask me what the
name of the place was, I'm terrible with names and places, but
Dave might well remember. Erm, you know, it was about, I think
an hour North of Palma somewhere, but, you now. Again, all I can
say, I can't say it enough, they were just very, very laid back
people who are very easy to get on with and, you know, good
company'.
1485
'Yeah. You know when you were away with them the previous
times''
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'How were they, how did they look after the children, well that
is totally the wrong way of saying that, how were they in
relation to the children''
Reply
'Well, again, I mean, I look back to Majorca and the twins
were, what, only six months old and Madeleine, what, two, and
still they, they were a slick machine, you know, a well oiled
machine, the way they did everything routine, they were very
much like I am with, and Dave, with our kids, very much operate
by routine and, you know, bedtime routines and lunchtime
routines, but they worked very hard and worked very hard
together, erm, and made it look very easy and that's how it
always came across with them, it never, it never seemed arduous
or hard'.
00.35.48
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, and they, and they never moaned about it, so it just
seemed that way, you know, they were just, just very easy'.
1485
'What about the night-time arrangements on previous holidays''
Reply
'On previous holidays''
1485
'Umm'.
Reply
'Erm, I think, again, Madeleine, on that holiday, Madeleine was
in with Sean and Amelie, erm, but they were in bedrooms next
door, it was just a big villa so we were, we all had enough
bedrooms to have the children in one room, adults in the one
next door. Erm, but in terms of the evenings, we all just took
it in turns to cook for everybody and then we'd sit either at
the dining room table or on the patio and have our evening meal
and go to bed'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'We had a hideous time with our eldest that holiday, because
she didn't sleep a wink for about two weeks, every night, so we
were generally pacing around, erm, on the outside of the villa'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'At silly hours of the morning'.
1485
'And was their children'.
Reply
'Very good'.
1485
'To sleep on time''
Reply
'Absolutely, they were like model children'.
1485
'Sleeping through''
Reply
'Sleeping through, much to our distaste, because ours weren't.
But, yeah, I mean, they, they'd always had a really good routine
and Sean and Amelie at that point were incredibly, erm, you
know, I think they were sleeping through actually and I think
even were sleeping past when everyone else's kids were getting
up, they were sort of model babies'.
00.37.19
1485
'Yeah. How often would you meet them both, going back now to
Portugal, how often would you meet them or see them between the
twenty-eight and the third, that is the day that you arrived to
the day that Madeleine''
Reply
'Twenty-eighth of the third. We'd see them every day, erm, as I
say, if we hadn't seen them through the day we'd always see them
at night. But, in passing, I mean, I probably saw them every day
sort of at some point, erm, but often not for more than a sort
of quick chat sort of as we were on our way somewhere. Erm, but,
yeah, I mean, every day, leading up to May the third, at high
tea, as I say, they always went to high tea as did we, so, erm,
that was always, the beginning of our sort of social time, if
you like, altogether, was the kids high tea'.
1485
'Because you all had different, because you were saying earlier
on, you all had different activities''
Reply
'During the day, yeah'.
1485
'What was their primary activity throughout the day''
Reply
'Tennis'.
1485
'Tennis''
Reply
'Yeah, tennis. They'd both booked lessons, erm, I think some of
them together, some individually, but they had a lot of tennis
lessons'.
1485
'And where was Madeleine and the twins while that was taking
place''
Reply
'They were in their kids clubs, the twins were in the toddler
club and Madeleine at the older one over near the reception,
erm, and I'm pretty sure they went in every morning and every
afternoon, there might have been, I don't know any different,
but I think certainly most days they went in the afternoon as
well'.
1485
'Yeah. And other than the men's Thursday tennis, would there be
a time where perhaps one was doing an activity and the other one
would be at the apartment''
Reply
'Between Kate and Gerry''
00.39.06
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Yeah, I'm sure there would have been because, as I say, I'm
sure they had separate lessons as well as ones together, so they
wouldn't be always at the same time. And I have a feeling, I
mean, erm, the reason they were sort of going to kids clubs was
because the twins weren't really sleeping in the afternoon, but
I do think they tried, erm, to put them down a couple of times
to see if they would sleep and they didn't, so then went and did
something else and put them in the club, but, erm, yeah, I think
they did try to get them to sleep. And, to be fair, Madeleine
and Ella I think were asking to go back half the time because
they, they were just having a ball there'.
1485
'How often during the holiday did you see Madeleine and the
twins''
Reply
'Erm, as I say, I would have seen them every high tea, I mean,
the Thursday, that was a different day, in that, I'd only seen
Madeleine when, as I say, when I walked with Kate, erm, and we
picked Madeleine and Scarlet up. But, yeah, bar that, we saw the
children ever, every evening for high tea and afterwards for the
sort of playtime. Erm, but during the day I tended not to see,
not to see them'.
1485
'Right. And you say that you wouldn't have seen them at
breakfast because they didn't''
Reply
'They didn't do breakfast at the Millennium, so as I say really
we, we wouldn't sort of on the whole catch up with Kate and
Gerry, other than in, if we happen to sort of cross paths'.
1485
'Oh yes'.
Reply
'Briefly until our kids high tea'.
1485
'Yes. Have you ever felt a reason to become concerned about
their, about the children''
Reply
'Never'.
1485
'Never. That's when I asked you earlier on to take your friends
head off'.
Reply
'(Inaudible), I've never, I mean I, would she be such a good
friend if I had doubts about her as a parent, or as a human
being but she wouldn't. She's a dear friend because, cos of the
person she is and the parent she is, I mean and Gerry, I mean
I'm making them sound like saints but they're, I've never had
any, any doubt at all about how they are with the children, how
they deal with them, I know they love them to death'.
00.41.20
1485
'And again, this is a repeat but when did you, when was the
last time you saw Madeleine''
Reply
'It was, it would be when we walked back with, erm, Scarlet and
Kate from the, from picking them at the kids club in the af, in
the lunch time, that was the last time I saw them'.
1485
'At lunch time''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Did you not see them the, the knock up time between quarter
to, half six and quarter to seven, did you not see her then''
Reply
'Lock up time''
1485
'Knock up time when, you know, when you, after you'd left the
beach''
Reply
'No, no when we left the beach, by the time we got back to the
tennis courts, Kate had already gone back to start bathing the
kids and put them to bed so I didn't, I didn't see them'.
1485
'Right got you, wasn't trying to catch you out then, I just
missed something with (inaudible)'.
Reply
'No, no, lunch time was the last time I saw her'.
1485
'When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday, so when was the
first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on the Thursday''
Reply
'It would have been sort of late morning when we'd got back
from our sailing and we got changed, got some warm things on and
we were just sat on the sun loungers by the pool, erm, just
having a drink and Kate and Gerry appeared, we offered them a
drink, I think they turned down, they either, they'd just had a
tennis lesson or had a knock, erm. In fact I think, was it Gerry
had had a lesson then and was going into length degree to Kate
about his style of tennis and I was joking that Kate was
actually listening to this and finding it incredibly boring cos
it's the sort of thing, you know, they, as a couple, they did
have amazing sort of patience with each other than (inaudible),
I wouldn't have that with David talking to me (inaudible), so
there was that joke, so yeah I think it was Gerry just had a
tennis lesson and Kate might have been having a knock up, but
they were in their tennis gear'.
00.43.11
1485
'You say they turned up at your apartment''
Reply
'No, no this was down by the, this was down on the sun loungers
outside the, where the pool'.
1485
'Oh right, you were downstairs'.
Reply
'And it was just about time to go and pick up the kids, so we
sort of sat about ten minutes and then, so Kate and I wandered
off down to the, erm, Reception to get the kids, erm, Scarlet,
Madeleine and Gerry and Dave went and got, went to the toddler
club to get the twins and Lily'.
1485
'Anything different about them at all''
Reply
'Nothing, again, you know, just having a good time, relaxed'.
1485
'Nothing different. Think I've asked you this as well, when you
arrived at the Tapas on the third of May'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Who was already there''
Reply
'Everybody, bar Matt, erm, so, erm, yeah, going round the
table'.
1485
'Yes so'.
Reply
'Yeah so, erm, Kate, Gerry, erm, Rachael and then Jane and
Russell'.
00.44.04
1485
'Is everybody sitting down''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'What were Kate and Gerry doing when you arrived''
Reply
'Just sat at the table and having a drink, conversing with
whoever was there'.
1485
'So were they talking to each other, or were they talking to
somebody separate''
Reply
'Would be talking to somebody separate, I mean they weren't
sort of sat together, they were sort of, they were all spread
out'.
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Erm, but, yeah, they were just, you know, as every evening,
everyone's just chatting and, you know, sometimes you'd be in
pairs, someone's chatting to the groups, you know, as you do,
nothing different about that night to, to any other'.
1485
'Did they have a drink on the table''
Reply
'I think by the time we arrived, there was wine on the table,
cos that's generally what the waiters brought as soon as you
arrived anyway, cos you, with your meal got a bottle of wine per
couple or something like that free with your meal, so that was
(inaudible) on, so I think yeah that was already there but there
was no food'.
1485
'So it was wine they were drinking and not any cocktails or
anything like that''
Reply
'No I can't remember anything else amiss, certainly no
cocktails, erm, some, some people drank beer or asked for a beer
on certain nights but I couldn't tell you whether that night
whether anyone had beer or who had wine but I say the wine
generally had, we'd had a glass of wine, erm, with the meal
every evening so would have been there'.
1485
'Could you hear any of their conversation''
Reply
'What, Kate and Gerry''
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'Well I don't know whether they were particularly conversing
together, so did I hear their conversation with other people,
nothing sticks in my mind, everyone was very excited about the
day they had, there was a lot of conversation about what
everyone had been doing, you know, Dave and I had had a fan,
fantastic sail in the morning, talking about that and, and so
there was all the antics in the afternoon with Matt and
Russell's sort of jokes about that sort of earlier'.
1485
'So Matt falling in''
Reply
'Yeah I don't know'.
1485
'Capsizing or something''
Reply
'What happened but yeah they were, they were out sailing and I
think Matt fell out the boat or something and Russell's a less
experienced sailor, so he had to try and rescue Matt, so, erm,
anyway, you know, that, that was the, you can imagine the sort
of macho stories of Russell telling Matt, rescuing Matt'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'So there's the, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of banter, a
lot of funny stories and, and then, you know, Gerry talking
about his tennis and everybody had, I say had had the best day
out of the whole week that day, up until that point'.
1485
'Yes. Did you talk to Gerry''
Reply
'Yeah we all, we all talking together, I couldn't, I couldn't
tell you specifically about what but he, I'm pretty sure he was
sat, you know, one side, me and Kate on the other and yeah we
all, we all chatted, I can't remember specifically what we'd
have talked to Gerry about that night though'.
1485
'Cos that's the time that Kate mentioned about Madeleine wasn't
it''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'So could you not remember anything that Gerry had said''
Reply
'Gerry didn't really join, when he was talking to someone else
and this was conversation just between, erm, me and Kate,
although I know Jane and Rachael joined in a bit, they were
sitting sort of the other side of Kate, so it was sort of a
conversation amongst the girls really'.
00.47.10
1485
'Yes, and how were they behaving''
Reply
'Relax, happy, you know, very relax, behaving completely
normally'.
1485
'Who left the table during the meal and why''
Reply
'Erm, it was go over, erm, so Gerry left the table (inaudible)
enough to us getting there, erm, Matt was already gone when we
got there, he obviously came back, I can't remember whether that
was before or after, erm, Gerry, but I think Matt was back
before Gerry leaving, erm, he went to check on the children,
erm, as far as I'm aware, came back and said, 'Everything's
quiet', did mention that he'd, erm, spoken to Jez and seen him
on the way back, I think he mentioned that to Kate, erm, cos I
think they talked a bit about their tennis, erm, I was aware of
Jane leaving the table again to go and check on, on er Ella and
Evie, erm, and was aware of her coming back, I say I couldn't
tell you again how long she took, no one ever took very long,
even in my eyes, it was the only sort of longer stay was Russell
when he went, erm, later on and with Matt and then came back and
said Matt had said to (inaudible) was staying with Evie, so he,
but even then he was only away I'd say for sort of ten, fifteen
minutes before Jane went to take over'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'Which as I say, she rushed and ate her dinner, so he was
probably away for the longest I'd say out of anybody but that
still was only ten, fifteen minutes, erm, and that's it, Rachael
didn't leave the table, mum didn't leave the table, I didn't,
Dave didn't, it was really just, erm, Kate, Gerry, er Matt and
Jane and Russell so'.
1485
'You know, when, erm, Jane came back after the first visit''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'How was she when she came back, because that's the time that,
you know, shooting forward, I suppose she saw this''
Reply
'Yeah'.
00.49.13
1485
'How did she, any different''
Reply
'Absolutely fine, I mean there was nothing remarkable about,
nothing that she said when she came back, nothing different,
erm, certainly not what I picked up on, she seemed to sit down
and be fine'.
1485
'Right. So did you see Gerald leave the table during the meal,
I think we've already covered that one, what time, we've covered
that''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'How long was he absent, we've covered that'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'How long do you think, I don't think we've covered how long he
was away for''
Reply
'Gerry''
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'Again, I, I couldn't tell you exactly but no one, the only one
sticks in my mind was being longer was Russell, so I don't,
don't think Gerry was away for that long, I'd say five, five
minutes'.
1485
'And did he say anything when he came back''
Reply
'Yeah, I mean he did, I do remember him coming back and Gerry's
quite, erm, quite a loud person, much like Russell, erm, you
know, and just announcing all, all is quiet or something like
that and then say about Jez but'.
1485
'And was he behaving and acting any, any differently
afterwards''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'And he's, did you see Jane leave the table, yes you saw her.
Sort of what time do you think Jane left the table''
Reply
'Erm'.
1485
'I know that you said about your watch, but what sort of time''
Reply
'Yeah, I, I'm guessing it was around nine o'clock, it was
about, you know, it must have been pretty soon after Gerry left
and I think for them, their check was, it would have been around
nine o'clock, so it must have been around then'.
00.50.40
1485
'And I've asked you was she, did she behave any differently
when she came back''
Reply
'No'.
1485
'And you're saying Matthew, he left at, he, he'd already, he'd
left the table before you got there hadn't he''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And but he left again didn't he with Russell you said''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And then he came back is that right''
Reply
'He came back'.
1485
'About what time did he come back''
Reply
'Erm, it must be around half nine sort of time, he wasn't away
for long'.
1485
'How long do you think he was absent for''
Reply
'I'd say no more, what two, three minutes, I mean about as long
as it took to walk there and back again'.
1485
'Did he say anything about listening at any windows, or
listening at any doors, do you, do you pick up on any
conversation like that''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah, I mean again I think he had said, he, he had
checked on, erm, outside the windows of, erm, of his apartment,
then I think he'd popped into Russell's apartment, he did say,
you know, said that Evie had been ill, erm, and I was aware that
he had checked on er, Madeleine and the twins and that was maybe
what was different that night as well that hadn't really been
done before, of him going in the apartment, I don't know which
order he did it in'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'But I know when he came back and he reported they're all sound
asleep and quiet'.
00.51.59
1485
'So you say you were aware that he checked on Madeleine''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'What sort of conversation, or what context of the conversation
was that''
Reply
'I think Matt had offered cos he was going, as Matt and Russell
going up together, erm, rather than be asked to do it, I think
he'd offered, erm, and, you know, that, you know, they'd said,
'Oh the French doors open you can pop in there'.'
1485
'Sorry, who said that, who said''
Reply
'Whether it was Gerry or Kate, I couldn't, couldn't tell you,
erm, saying I'm aware he did that for them and aware he came
back and said all was quiet and there was no, no, no problems,
erm, no nothing seemed significant, really different or'.
1485
'And when he came back, was he acting any differently''
Reply
'Not at all'.
1485
'Same questions regarding Russell'.
Reply
'What, what, when he came back''
1485
'Yes, did he go just the once and then, then stayed''
Reply
'He went yeah, I think that was the first time he went was
(inaudible) with Matt, erm, I don't remember him going before
that, as Jane did the check before that, erm, did he act any
differently, no, again he obviously came back saying, you know,
Evie had been sick or whatever and was, erm, just saying what it
all was and he'd been wrestling with dirty sheets and all that
sort of stuff, but no he was, again sort of very relaxed and the
same as he went'.
1485
'And when Kate went to do the checking'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'How many times did Kate go and do the checking''
Reply
'To my knowledge, just the once'.
00.53.46
1485
'Just the once''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'And that was the time that she came back and'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'So round about what time was that''
Reply
'Five to ten, I mean I know it's ten o'clock when she came
back, so a few minutes before that'.
1485
'So how long, how long was she absent for''
Reply
'Five minutes, less'.
1485
'And what did she say when she came back''
Reply
' 'She's gone Gerry, Madeleine's gone', I'm hundred per cent
about that'.
1485
'And we've discussed how she looked, she looked shocked and'.
Reply
'She was just frantic'.
1485
'Frantic. Were you shocked by her words''
Reply
'Absolutely, I mean I didn't, it was so sort of out of context
of the evening and the holiday, initially it was, it, I mean it
was just pure, you know, the words sinking in, the shock, the
horror of what, what that might mean and I know those are her
first words, I know there's been a lot of reported since about
people saying, you know, they've taken her and she did say those
things but they were, you know, later as far as I'm aware, I
didn't hear anything suggesting anyone had taken her at that
point and initially, you know, the, the hope and the automatic
response was really that, that she had wandered away, erm, you
know, I, pretty soon after, I was hearing the words, you know,
they've taken her and that the window was open, the shutter was
open, erm, and all that that implied, but those weren't her
first words and her first implication wasn't that'.
00.55.22
1485
'What did you do once she'd come back and raised the alarm''
Reply
'We, I say we all jumped up, Gerry was first, he just sprinted
off with Kate and they, they were ahead of everybody else, erm,
cos I had the monitor and mum and I just thought somebody ought
to stay behind, I was probably latter in the, in the line, cos I
just said to mum, 'Stay put and see if she comes back, keep the
monitor' and then you know, me, erm, Jane wasn't there
obviously, it was me, Rachael, er Matt, Russell and Dave that
sort of, erm, got to the part outside the apartment and that's
when we, we just said, 'Right, let's do a quick search, like you
go that way, you go that way'.'
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'Because you see within seconds it was, you know, everybody
split up and did a quick, quick search in a different
direction'.
1485
'I think my next series of questions I've asked you in relation
to you going into the McCANN's apartment, you went in with Kate,
what you said earlier on'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'And you described what you saw, you've described the children
sleeping, they slept and everything, so are the twins, nothing
unusual, but one thing I want, need to ask you is, erm, how long
after the alarm was raised, did you end up in the McCANN's
apartment''
Reply
'After that initial search, it was as long as it took me to
walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round
the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five
minutes'.
1485
'Five minutes'.
Reply
'It wasn't long (inaudible)'.
1485
'So from the time that you'd gone racing off after Kate and
Gerry'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think''
Reply
'Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it
wouldn't have taken me long to (inaudible)'.
00.57.02
1485
'What did you do next, you took part in sort of, well you took
part in the search, searches''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Who were you with when you were searching''
Reply
'Kate'.
1485
'Did Kate walk that perimeter''
Reply
'Oh what, sorry the search outside the apartment''
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'No I was on my own, we were all, we were all on our own at
that point, I don't think anybody doubled up, erm I say we, the
main people just went, I think Rachael might have gone in to
check on, she went straight in I think to check Grace and stayed
with Grace and it was just the other men and me and my mum had
the monitor but yeah we all went on our own for that initial
check'.
1485
'Yes. Did your mum join you then at some point, or did she''
Reply
'Mum came up once I was in the apartment with Kate, er my mum
came up to like, 'What shall I do, I've waited' and at that
point I said, 'Just wait with Scarlet up in the apartment'.'
1485
'Okay and realising that Madeleine had not been found in the
first ten minutes, how did Kate react''
Reply
'Oh as I said earlier, she was hysterical, it upsets me very
much to even think about how she was, cos it was erm, she was so
terrified, absolutely inconsolable, she was rampaging round the,
the room, she's up and down, pacing, kicking walls, just on, for
most part, just imagining where or what might be happening to
Madeleine and angry at herself and then for having left her, not
being there and just, she was shouting a lot, I can't, 'We've,
we've let her down Gerry, we've let her down, we weren't there
for her' erm you know the pain that was causing her that she
hadn't been there, was just very raw, erm anger at the, the
whole, I say the system that nobody was seemed to be arriving
and you know, what was being done and the feeling of just
nothing, nothing being done, the helplessness and that, that
raw, raw emotion of just grief, of just terror and just praying,
she was praying, she kept kneeling everywhere just praying and
praying and praying and asking for a Priest and just wanted you
know, everybody to be praying for Madeleine for her to be safe'.
00.59.33
1485
'What about Gerry''
Reply
'Gerry initially, they were both just hysterical, I mean the
shock I'd say you know more on Gerry's side, he was just stunned
like she's got to be here, she's got to be here, this can't have
happened, very, very much sort of almost denial, erm but then
when he saw the room and sunk in what Kate had seen, he was
convinced she'd been taken and at that point he was, you know
was sobbing, him and Kate were just sobbing, clinging to each
other and you know what shall we do, what shall we do, you know,
Gerry kicked in to his sort of you know, action mode, which er
he was ringing people, who do we need to ring, the British
Embassy, I think he was trying to get hold of the British
Embassy and just get somebody erm who was English speaking, who
might be able to help, erm say early, I know he phoned his
sister, he was phoning relatives, just telling anybody you know,
you've got to help us, what can you do, can you think of
anything, erm he was flitting in and out, I was aware, so I
stayed in the apartment but I know Gerry was in and out,
speaking to the Police when they arrived, erm you know they
were, Gerry, his way of coping is to do, to, to feel like he's
doing something in a positive way and that's definitely how he
got through the night. I don't know how he did the things he
did, even made the calls he made'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'But that, that's his way'.
1485
'Where were you sat whilst all this was taking, I know you were
sat in the, the apartment, where were you sat, in the bedroom or
in the''
Reply
'We were all over the place, we were in and out of the bedroom,
in and out of the twins bedroom, in the living room, on the
balcony, I was following Kate, Kate was all over the place, erm
spent a fair bit of time just in her bedroom and Gerry's
bedroom, erm but she, you know she was just pacing away all over
the place'.
01.01.55
1485
'Well again, you've answered this question, in your opinion,
well what is your opinion about their behaviour once, Ma, once
you know it dawned that Madeleine was missing. What's your
opinion on the way they were, they were acting or the way that
they were''
Reply
'Well how can anyone ever put themselves in their situation,
you know how, what's the right way to go, but the, the
transition from utter relaxed, happiness to, I mean the worst
thing that could ever, ever, ever possibly happen to them
(inaudible), that's very, it was just evident, looking at Kate's
face, the pain and, and Gerry's as well, the pain and the
anguish that has been left since the third of May and continue
to be there, I mean erm yeah, I mean is it normal to react the
way they did, I couldn't tell you what's normal but they were
just distraught and genuinely so'.
1485
'Can you just tell me your movements, I know you've skated over
them, well in fact you've gone into great detail on the last
interview, but can you just tell me what, what your movements
were from say ten thirty, so assuming now that Mad, you know
the, the alarm has been raised half an hour, so what did you do
from ten thirty pm 'til ten am the following day''
Reply
'Erm for the most part on the night, as I said, I was just
milling in the apartment and out on the balcony and just outside
their front door, erm with, with Kate, erm I was there in the
apartment when the first lot of Policemen arrived, which I think
was around sort of between eleven, quarter past eleven. Er I was
there when they did their initial search and we just followed
them really, erm and I, I didn't really move, I mean I can't,
can't really say much more than that'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'I stayed in the apartment, erm I was aware later that the GNR
were there as I say they were wandering round the front and the
back and, and the time when I came out and met Robert MURAT, erm
I'm assuming that was sort of after sort of midnight, there and
that sort of time because the uniformed Police were there, erm
the sort of troops in their boots, I don't, think they're GNR,
erm and then you know, I, I was just in, in the apartment for,
for the most part just with Kate, erm I eventually moved up back
to my apartment when it was suggested by the PJ that you know,
they had to get the twins out, so I went to that part to
organise our flats and you know, the, the nannies in with the
travel cots and the bedding, I helped them set that all up, so
at that point I was separate to Kate and Gerry. Erm and then I
was just in, in our apartment, I'd say for, I'd say half three,
four o'clock when they brought the twins up, erm I sat on the
sofa with Kate next to me and say we had the twins asleep on us,
a good half an hour with Kate, just in complete shock, sobbing.
Erm, then we put the twins to bed in the, in the cots, I say we
made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted
some more and by about half four, we'd all decided to just try
and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm,
Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate
and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave
and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we
got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as
I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn't sleep, they
couldn't, they couldn't rest and they were just, it was driving
them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and
they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on
the twins'.
01.06.31
1485
'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
Reply
'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was
you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we'd,
we'd, we'd just dozed off, so erm it was still very early. Er
the next morning to be honest is a bit of a blur, I think with
the kids we, we, our role really was just to try and keep some
normality for the twins who were obviously er wondering what on
earth was going on, erm then giving the kids breakfast and
getting them dressed and sorted, getting to kids club and we
just decided they should all do, you know have the day that they
would normally have, so that was my role the following morning
really, erm I'm trying to remember what, what I, well you're not
asking after ten o'clock are you, but certainly that was my
morning, just getting them ready and erm dropping them off at
the cr'he'.
1485
'So did it culminate up to you taking them to the cr'he then''
Reply
'Umm, I held onto Scarlet that day'.
1485
'What sort of'.
Reply
'And just (inaudible). Erm it would have been, I don't know
when it opened actually, I can't remember whether it was nine or
half nine but it would have been around that time'.
01.08.06
1485
'So during that morning, who did you talk to''
Reply
'Just the group really and obviously Kate and Gerry and my mum
and Dave, erm we saw, we see Matt and Rachael and, and Jane and
Russell the next morning, I hadn't seen much of them on the
night after Madeleine had gone, erm so yeah we were all sort of
hearing what each other had been up to I suppose overnight but
yeah that's the first time I'd really spoken to them in detail'.
1485
'What sort of time was it that you spoke to Mr MURAT''
Reply
'On the night, I say, I, I, I think it would have been around
midnight'.
1485
'Around midnight. When did you leave Portugal''
Reply
'Erm I can't remember the date, I've got a diary with me
(inaudible), do you want me to look''
1485
'Yes if you want to, yes'.
Reply
'We stayed, Dave and I stayed on a bit longer that the others,
twenty second of May'.
1485
'Twenty second of May''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Cos the others, the others left on the seventeenth didn't
they''
Reply
'They left yeah the week before and my mum left the week
before, it was just Dave and I and the kids that stayed on, I'm
the closest to Kate I suppose and we just didn't feel it was
right to leave all at once'.
01.09.45
1485
'So where did you stay then''
Reply
'(Inaudible)'.
1485
'You stayed in the same apartments''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'They, they kept them on for you then did they''
Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.
1485
'How many times whilst you were there did you meet Kate and
Gerry''
Reply
'In the weeks following, the days following''
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'We saw them every day, erm tended to be er in the, certainly
in the early days, at night time, they were just incredibly busy
Kate and Gerry with all the Press that they were doing and the
interviews and Police interviews, erm but every, every night
generally I'd text Kate to say I'm coming over and my mum would
look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their
apartment, just to see where, where they were at and what had
happened and say erm so yeah, I'd say every day, don't think
there was a day I didn't see them'.
1485
'Where were they staying in relation to where you were staying,
cos obviously they weren't in the''
Reply
'They got, they got moved to the apartment block that was sort
of down from us, erm'.
1485
'Still at, still at the Ocean Club''
Reply
'Yeah at the Ocean Club, it was, they were on a first floor
apartment'.
1485
'Right'.
Reply
'So it wasn't, it's only three, three minutes away,
(inaudible), down the car park really'.
01.11.04
1485
'Sorry''
Reply
'It's just down the car park really, it was sort of'.
1485
'Yes okay and again you've answered this question a dozen times
but again what's normal, but do you think that they were showing
normal behaviour for, for parents who had lost a child''
Reply
'Absolutely, absolutely, it's the desperation that I cannot
describe to you, erm but was so upsetting and they were just
desperate, absolutely desperate, erm you know, I think Kate, you
know she was sort of (inaudible) really going through the, how
I'd expect somebody to react really, she, she would go from
being incredibly angry and physically, as I say you know, days
after she, she had bouts of just, just wanting to inflict pain
on herself really it seemed like, erm and just being angry and
frustrated that why is, why haven't they got her, why haven't
anyone found her, erm just her being totally devastated that she
wasn't there, erm, erm very withdrawn and just, say sitting
there sobbing, not, and you just couldn't reach her in those
items and then almost the numb bits in between it, it was just
cycled between those three phases really with, certainly with
Kate. I say Gerry again was, he just grieved in a very different
fashion, I mean for him he could see it all, all there and it
obviously upset me, saw them crying, saw them get emotionally
upset as well but on the most part after that first period of
shock and, and just sobbing and not knowing what to do, he did
think right this isn't going to get Madeleine back, this isn't
gonna help, you know these are things I've got to do to, to get
her back'.
1485
'Yes'.
Reply
'And he just went into that mode, where he did not stop, he
didn't sit down, he don't, I don't think he allowed himself time
to, to sort of grieve for the fact that she wasn't there'.
1485
'Did you not find that peculiar, the fact that he didn't want
to just sit around and mope and''
Reply
'No cos I know Gerry and he's just as I said earlier, he's not,
he's not that sort of character, he never sits down anywhere,
he's a very positive, always got energy, always, he's just one
of these people that you know, makes you feel lazy you know
almost, cos he's just, he's a very upbeat person and pragmatic
as well and he's right, you know, sitting, sitting there crying
isn't gonna help bring her back, he did his fair bit of sitting
there crying believe me but he, he wasn't, you could see him
trying not to allow himself that time just to sit and get sort
of down, cos it wasn't gonna help her and I don't think I ever
saw him sit and relax or have a drink or do nothing, was
constantly either on the phone or the computer, you know he was
constantly doing something and that carried on I'd say even you
know when we went back in July and he was still in that mode and
that made me worry more for him actually, cos I think Kate at
least, I think you've got to grieve you know and I think if you
don't, you think it's all gonna build up and I was more worried
for Gerry that, that he didn't seem to be giving himself that
time to, to be upset'.
01.14.30
1485
'Yes. I think, so you think he didn't give himself time to, you
think he was more in the motivation mode than in the, the
grieving mode''
Reply
'I think after the first sort of, the first day they were both
useless and I think they're both in shock and they were both the
same but there was a definite change in Gerry, erm party because
of you know, I don't want to sit here and say what wasn't done,
you know, in fact there were a lot of things that, that provoked
a lot of anger amongst us that we felt should have been done
that wasn't done in that, those early hours in that first day
and, but, what, what's anger going to get, you're stuck in a
country where your child has gone missing, you've got to work
with the Police, you can't, you know, you can't react and to,
and, you know, give out bursts of, you know, why hasn't this
happened because you know it's not going to happen. And Gerry,
that's the way he was seeing things, he was very, erm, aware
that he had to work with the, with the Police here and be
sensible about their approach with the media and everything and
Kate's very reactive, you know, she's, she's a completely
different personality and, you know, if she's angry she'll show
she's angry and when she's upset she'll show she's upset,
whereas Gerry can be, erm, he's more able to, to sort of see
through all that and just think, hang on what's right for,
what's right, what's going to get us further forward here, you
know, getting upset and screaming at the Police isn't going to
get us anywhere and he's always sort of pulling Kate back a bit
really and saying, 'Look, that that's not going to help, we've
got to do this', erm and that's just the way they are, and
that's the way, before this happened, that's the personalities
they are. So, no, it didn't surprise me the way Gerry reacted at
all because that's, in any situation, that's why he's good at
his job, you know, he's, he's a very pragmatic person, in an
emergency he's the person you'd want to call on because he
thinks straight and he thinks clearly, whereas not all of us
do'.
01.16.44
1485
'During the holidays did you happen to see Kate and Gerry
talking to somebody unknown''
Reply
'Unknown to me''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, yeah, erm, I mean, quite a lot of, but I think they were
all sort of MARK WARNER holidaymakers, I mean, they all knew, as
I say, Jez, he knew, I didn't really know Jez, certainly before,
erm, May the third and there were a few other couples that I was
aware they were quite chatty with, you know, when we went to the
Tapas Bar and there'd be another family sat down eating their
meal, they might have talked to them, but, again, I didn't
really, erm, know those other couples because we hadn't really
sort of met and we didn't really make a lot of effort, to be
honest. But, again, Kate, that's the sort of people Kate and
Gerry are, they're very, very sociable, they seem to pick up
friends wherever they go and, erm, so, yeah, that again didn't
surprise me, no, they've met more people than us'.
1485
'Did you see Gerry and Kate inside a car during the holidays''
Reply
'No, never. They didn't have a car'.
1485
'Never''
Reply
'(Shakes head). There was no reason to'.
01.17.55
1485
'Okay. We are almost finished now. This is another general
question, alright''
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'Again, based on the questions that has been put to you by
Gerry and Kate within this interview, is there anything that you
think that hasn't been mentioned that you think ought to be
brought out on this interview''
Reply
'Regarding Kate and Gerry''
1485
'Well regarding the whole affair, you know, Madeleine going
missing, Kate and Gerry, is there anything that you, you know,
you want to''
Reply
'Well the only thing, again it's just a reaction to what's been
in the Press sort of doubting Jane's statement, erm, that I
would say, I've never been in any, any doubt that what Jane has
seen, she has never changed her story to me or to anybody in the
group about what she saw on that night from day one and, erm,
and I think her bit of evidence is the most convincing, erm,
that I've heard out of any of us and the most accurate and the
most convincing that I'm convinced that was Madeleine'.
1485
'Okay. Is there anything at this stage you want to say to me or
ask me or''
Reply
'Umm, no'.
1485
'Anything that might establish exactly what has happened to
Madeleine that is burning inside that you want to talk about''
Reply
'No, I mean, you've got the information that we've got, I mean,
we, you know, we've all drawn our hypothesis of who could have
got in there, how could they have got out, you know, but none of
us know, I mean, that's, that, you've got the facts of who went
in and who went out of that apartment'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, but I'm convinced that what Jane saw was Madeleine being
carried away'.
1485
'Okay. Just finally, Fiona, I just want to ask you, you are
aware that there is going to be a re-enactment over in Portugal,
it is either going to be at the end of April or into May''
Reply
'Umm'.
01.19.58
1485
'How do you feel about attending that re-enactment''
Reply
'Well I've made my feelings clear in a letter, erm, already.
Erm, my feelings are, I would do absolutely anything if I felt
it was going to help bring, find Madeleine or find who took her.
Erm, my reservations are, at this point, how doing the
re-enactment is going to achieve that or advance the search in
any way. And, obviously, there is a lot of apprehensions about
doing it, just in terms of the media and they way we've been
treated, the way the media would react to us doing the
re-enactment, how they'd sort of physically actually manage to
do a re-enactment without massive media intrusion, erm, and how
the information would be used, I mean, we all know that we're
telling the truth of our actions on the night and if doing a
re-enactment were going to be for the purpose of trying to find
holes or, you know, in our movements and statements and try and
rubbish our statements, then we know that's not going to help
find Madeleine, because we know, we were there, and we know
we're telling the truth, so I wouldn't be happy to do it if that
was the reason for doing it. I'd just like to be convinced how
it's going to move the investigation on really, erm, to find
Madeleine'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'And, at the moment really, we've got no reason to trust the
motives of doing a re-enactment when Kate and Gerry are still
aguido and, if they're aguido, I think we've all got to be
implicated, because I just don't see how Kate and Gerry could
have done anything that's been suggested without us all being in
on it, you know, it's just impossible'.
1485
'Is that it''
Reply
'So, you know, that's a big stumbling block really'.
1485
'So, at this present moment, you are saying you wouldn't''
Reply
'No, I mean, we haven't really had any, been given any
information about how it's going to be used and that's the
information that I think we would all need if we were going to
do it and, obviously, there's no point one of us doing it
without everybody doing it. So, I think, you know, as far as I'm
concerned, I'd only do it if everybody else was doing it,
otherwise it's pointless. And I still don't see, erm, I think,
emotionally, it would be hideous to go back and have to do an
re-enactment, I really do, and I don't see how, erm, emotions
couldn't affect the way it was done, because it would just be
horrific, I mean, imagine, you know, Jane having to relive that,
Kate having relive that, any of us having to relive that, you,
you couldn't do it without it being an emotional thing'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, so I just, I just don't see, I mean, in my eyes, doing
it, it would be beneficial if actors and actresses did it
because they don't have that emotion and you can still direct
them to exactly what you were doing and where you went and your
movements. So, so I still don't, we still haven't had an answer
to that really, that side of it'.
1485
'Okay. Alright. At this stage I have got nothing else to say to
you'.
Reply
'Umm'.
1485
'As you are aware, the interview is being monitored and it may
well be that they have some further questions, but at this
present moment, there are no more further questions'.
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'Alright. Actually there is. Sorry. Do you have your phone''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'I just want to clarify your, did you take your mobile with
you''
Reply
'I didn't. My mobile had actually broken before we went on
holiday, so we just had Dave's mobile'.
01.24.00
1485
'Right. So did anybody use your mobile whilst you were away''
Reply
(shakes head)
1485
'No''
Reply
'They couldn't have done, no'.
1485
'No. Could you just see if you have any of these numbers in
your phone''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'*********************
Reply
'*********************************
1485
'The last digits are going to be seven, one, three, that is
going to be easiest'.
Reply
'Seven, one, three'.
1485
'Sorry, you must have loads. Also look for one that ends in
eight, three, seven as well'.
Reply
'Ah ********. Is it***********''
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'That's my, Simon ALDRIDGE, my brother-in-law'.
1485
'It is who, sorry''
Reply
'Simon ALDRIDGE, he's my brother-in-law'.
1485
'Is there any reason why he would have been called''
Reply
'We did speak, well it couldn't have been off my phone, is this
from my phone''
1485
'Well it is possible that it, no, it wouldn't have been off
your phone'.
Reply
'No'.
1485
'It would have been off'.
Reply
'It would have been off Dave's'.
01.26.25
1485
'Dave's, yeah'.
Reply
'We did speak to him, yeah'.
1485
'Did you actually make any calls yourself''
Reply
'Erm, I used, I Dave's phone. I'm trying to think who phoned
Simon. I think Dave phoned Simon the following morning, erm,
just because he's another pragmatic, sensible thinking person'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'Erm, I mean, you know, we would have phoned all our family
that following day anyway'.
1485
'Umm'.
Reply
'But we had a lot of calls from him. Plus he's, he was, erm,
just wanting to be of help really, so he did phone a fair bit as
well, just in terms of, he organised for, erm, mobile phones,
erm, you know, Portuguese mobile phones to be sent out to use,
he, you know, he runs a business in Leeds, erm, and financially
as well, he was offering help if we needed, you know, money'.
1485
'Is there anybody other than family that you rang then''
Reply
'Erm, I rang the Children's Nursery, tut'.
1485
'Have you got that number in there''
Reply
'Erm, yeah. I think I might have texted them. Erm,
***************
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'What was the other ending that you wanted, eight, three,
seven''
1485
'Eight, three, seven, yeah'.
Reply
'Sorry, I didn't get to the last ones.
*********************01.28.28
1485
'That is it, yeah'.
Reply
'That's Dave's number'.
1485
'That is Dave's number, is it''
Reply
'It's his mobile number, yeah'.
1485
'Another one that ends in six, two, one''
Reply
'(inaudible). ****************that's Karen GREEN, which is
Dave's sister'.
1485
'The next one is a Portuguese number, well it is a short
number, it is *******************
Reply
'I don't, I wouldn't have that in this phone, erm, it's a
Portuguese number. Is it a Portuguese mobile number''
1485
'I don't know. It is just too short for, because ours are
normally eleven, aren't they''
Reply
'Yeah, we, because, as I say, Simon did organise, erm, a
Portuguese mobile phone for us to use out there, erm, which
we've still got at home, I couldn't tell you what the number was
for that mobile, but I used that once I was out there, you know,
to contact, you know, Dave or, or any of them, I've texted on
it'.
1485
'Somebody would have rang it or texted it''
Reply
'Yeah, tut, I'm just trying to remember how much I used it, you
know, every day. Again, I mean, if I had Dave's mobile phone
bills, which I think we did give to somebody actually, it might
have been Kate and Gerry's Lawyers actually, but we did use
those. I can't remember how much I used them and how much I used
the Portuguese phone, but we certainly had a Portuguese mobile'.
1485
'Yeah. It sent a text to *************, which is Dave's phone'.
Reply
'Uh hu'.
1485
'On the fourth of the fifth, so it is the following night'.
Reply
'Yeah'.
01.31.13
1485
'At twenty-two zero two'.
Reply
'So we would have been at the Police Station'.
1485
'And then twenty-two zero eight'.
Reply
'Sorry, from which phone, because we wouldn't have had the
Portuguese phone by then''
1485
'It would have sent, the Portu, well I've got the Port'.
Reply
'I don't know how quickly the phone arrived'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'I can't imagine it was that quick'.
1485
'The Portuguese phone, or that number, sent a text to Dave's
number at twenty-two zero two on the fourth, the following
night''
Reply
'So it was when I was being interviewed that evening. I don't
think our phones came out that, I can't imagine they would have
been out by then, on the Friday night, so I don't know. I'll
just check it isn't, are you sure it's a Portuguese number' Just
read the number out again, I'll just check it'.
1485
'It is ***************
Reply
'Yeah, it is a funny number, isn't it''
1485
'It has only got nine digits as opposed to our eleven'.
Reply
'Yeah. No, I haven't got that number on and I can't think, I
can't think who could have sent a Portuguese number at that
point. Dave might recall when our mobile phones came out, but
I'm sure it wasn't, it couldn't have been that quickly, erm'.
1485
'Okay. Here is another number that ends in, it looks like it
ends in ************
Reply
'**************'.
1485
'It might not necessarily be a mobile number'.
Reply
'Erm, Dave's mum, Diane PAYNE. Is it **********************
01.34.38
1485
'Say that again''
Reply
'I've got **********************''
1485
'That is it, yeah. Who is that, sorry''
Reply
'That's Diane PAYNE, it's Dave's mother'.
1485
'Yeah, there was calls made on the fourth from Dave's mobile
number''
Reply
'Umm, to Diane, yeah'.
1485
'So to his mum''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'The next one ends in *************'.
Reply
'************'.
1485
'It may well be *************, if that rings a bell'.
Reply
'(inaudible). I'll just go through methodically. *************,
that is Karen GREEN's home number'.
1485
'And who did you say that was''
Reply
'That's Dave's sister'.
1485
'Yeah. Do you know what the nature of those calls were''
Reply
'Well it was purely letting people know what had happened
really and obviously there was a lot of concern back home as
soon as the, the news hit, erm'.
1485
'And would you have made those calls from David's phone or
would Dave have made them''
Reply
'No, Dave made, Dave spoke to his family, I didn't speak to
this family'.
01.36.48
1485
'Okay. The next one, I think it is***********, so it could be a
London number.
Reply
'**********. No, that's not in my mobile, but I'm just
recalling, I did make some phone calls on behalf of Kate, erm,
the following morning and those, it's a shame, because we've all
swapped mobiles, you see, and not all of them were transferred,
but I'm pretty sure, erm, I rang at least two on Dave's phone,
just to let them know, again, you know, what had happened'.
1485
'Is that in the morning''
Reply
'Erm, that would have been, yeah, the following morning. I
mean, I would be just saying to Kate, you know, 'What can we do.
What can we do', and that was just one of the things, she said,
'Look, just everyone will be panicking at home, just', you know,
'if you can contact a few people'. So, yeah, those might be
numbers that I wouldn't have now in my mobile that'.
1485
'Dave could well have them''
Reply
'Well he's changed his mobile as well because his died a death,
so I don't think all his numbers are, you know, they weren't all
saved on the SIM card. But it's easy enough for me to find out
if they are, erm, friends or'.
1485
'Okay. There is two more left anyway. The first one is, it is a
mobile number and it ends in *****'.
Reply
'***************, that's a friend of mine, Lisa LAKHANI'.
1485
'Lisa''
Reply
'LAKHANI. L, A, K, H, A, N, I'.
1485
'And where does she live''
Reply
'She lives near to us in Leicester, erm'.
1485
'And who was it that rang her or text her''
Reply
'I would have rang her'.
01.40.48
1485
'It is actually a text'.
Reply
'I would have called her and, I think, at that point, it was
just to check on the house, erm, she had a key to my house and
she's a good friend as well'.
1485
'And the final one ends in three, one, two, three'.
Reply
'Three, one, two, three. Sorry, I've forgotten, three, two,
one, three''
1485
'Three, one, two, three'.
Reply
'Three, one, two, three'.
1485
'Yeah'.
Reply
'No, not got that one'.
1485
'Not got that one''
Reply
(shakes head)
1485
'Okay'.
Reply
'Again, as I say, it could be (inaudible)'.
1485
'That is it. Unless somebody else has any more questions,
alright''
Reply
'Okay'.
1485
'It is now shown at three fifty-two and we will stop it'.
SIGNATURE (Sgd)______________________________________________________
SM / SG F PAYNE 10.04.08
Forenames: FIONA ELAINE
Age: 35 Date of Birth:
Address:
Postcode:
Occupation: ANAESTHATIST
Telephone No:
Statement Date: 10/04/2008 Number of Pages: 1
On Thursday, 10th of April 2008, between 8.55 hours and 10.25
hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable MESSIAH at
Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded
on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during the interview
is an accurate account of my evidence.
On Thursday 10th of April 2008, between 11.10 hours and 12:34
hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable MESSIAH at
Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded
on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that
interview is an accurate account of my evidence.
On Thursday 10th of April 2008, between 14.10hours and 15:53
hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable MESSIAH at
Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded
on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that
interview is an accurate account of my evidence.
During the interview I drew up a plan of the Tapas Bar table at
the ocean Club containing the positions we sat on 3rd may 2007.
I mark and produce this rough plan as exhibit reference (F.P
100).
I also drew a plan of the apartment which we stayed at in the
Ocean Club I mark and produce a rough plan as exhibit reference
(F.P 100)
I also drew a plan of our apartment at the Ocean Club in
relation to the other members of our group. I mark and produce
this plan as exhibit reference (F.P 102)
At 4.30pm on the same day I handed the exhibits to the witness
Dc 1485 Messiah.
This statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my
knowledge and belief.
Signed: F PAYNE Signature witnessed by: |
